Was he lying?

[A P Tomlinson]

'So many independent data' Good job the grammar Police were not on the case eh?

Yes I've seen CH trot that one out at least 4 times in the last week. I do not even bother trying to 'debate' with the bloke anymore. I sent him an olive branch via PM, apologies if I'd been rude etc. He eventually got back to me and also apologised so I thought oh we are getting somewhere here but then continued to bully people on Facebook so I've decided not to engage with him anymore. I can be just as annoying in replying to him with flippant comments and emojis like 'yawn, more waffle' etc. I know that will boil his pee.

I've said it before any respecting author would write his account, put out his book and stand by it. He would take whatever criticism on the chin and accept others have opinions and be done with it. But no this one keeps attacking and attacking, changing the rules, moving the goal posts and then when painted into the corner either sends out the insults or ignores the questions. He claimed the newspaper reports regarding Paul's comments can't be relied on because he might have been misquoted. So I suggested if that was the case we need to remove ALL newspaper reports from the JtR case. We would not have much left. No reply. Funny that. However I'm sure ALL the newspaper reports suggesting Lechmere's guilt can stay in. The rest are out.

Data actually IS the plural, so it's grammatically correct... Datum is the singular.
It's just one of those terms that has become lost in the langauge over the years.

[Sam Flynn]

Let me mention another witness at one of the Ripper cases. The surname on his marriage license was Lavender. The surname in the censuses for him, his wife, and his children, was Lavender. In a 1876 proceeding at the Old Bailey, his surname was given as Levender [sic] and it is clear from the court records that his friends knew his surname as Lavender. He appeared in city directories as Lavender. He was buried as Lavender.

But at the Eddowes inquest, he used the name Joseph Lawende. He never mentioned the surname Lavender. So was he lying about his name at the inquest?

Lawende sounds almost exactly like "lavender" when pronounced by someone from Germany/Eastern Europe. He evidently anglicised his name at some point, and - acoustically at least - "Lavender" would be a perfect match.

[Fiver]

Oh he's got Betty Davis eyes...

Joseph Lawende, yeah... in the vicinity where a body was found... etc etc... fake name at the inquest, must be JtR.

Lawende also contradicted another witness on timing.

[Geddy2112]

He evidently anglicised his name at some point, and - acoustically at least - "Lavender" would be a perfect match.

However he still gave the wrong name at the inquest. No matter what it sounds like. My good lady is from the same City as Lawende and states are far as being 'Anglicised' is concerned it would certainly not change to Lavender. She also claims no self respecting Polish person would do such a thing and said they are more likely to add 'ska' or 'ski' to the end to promote the Polish depending on being male or female.

[Geddy2112]

Data actually IS the plural, so it's grammatically correct... Datum is the singular.
It's just one of those terms that has become lost in the language over the years.

Thank you. It was the word 'many' I was more concerned about, but yes our language changes a lot. I get your point and as the man said in the orthopaedic shoes 'I stand corrected.'

[Geddy2112]

Lawende also contradicted another witness on timing.

Hang him! Bet his work/home address took him past come of the murder spots at the correct time and if they did not he had a relative living close by, but not close enough to put a direct line through it... am I catching on yet?

[Sam Flynn]

However he still gave the wrong name at the inquest. No matter what it sounds like.

If Lawende sounds almost exactly like Lavender (which it does), then it almost certainly wasn't a lie, but a mis-hearing and/or a transcription error.

[Sam Flynn]

She also claims no self respecting Polish person would do such a thing

Jewish immigrants frequently anglicised their names. Besides, Lawende may not have strongly identified as Polish, otherwise why did his family emigrate from Poland?

"The last name Lawende is of Jewish origin and can be traced back to Eastern Europe. One possible origin of the surname is from the Yiddish word "laven" meaning "lion," suggesting a connection to the tribe of Judah in biblical times. The Lawende family may have settled in countries such as Poland, Russia, or Ukraine before spreading to other parts of the world" (Source: nomorigine.com)

[Fiver]

If Lawende sounds almost exactly like Lavender (which it does), then it almost certainly wasn't a lie, but a mis-hearing and/or a transcription error.

Lawende wasn't lying. You're missing my point. Levender [sic] could have been a transcription error in the 1876 case, but nobody called him Lavender at the Eddowes inquest. It's usually Lawende, occasionally Lewende. but not Lavender.

But he was listed as Lavender at his marriage, and in census records, and in burial records. If Lechmereians were consistent, they'd be accusing Lawende of not using his "registered name" at the inquest and using that and Lawende's disagreements with other witnesses on timing and other things as "proof" that Lawende was lying at the Eddowes inquest and must be the Ripper.

But these thing are only suspicious when Charles Lechmere does them.

[C. F. Leon]

Data actually IS the plural, so it's grammatically correct... Datum is the singular.
It's just one of those terms that has become lost in the langauge over the years.

Technically correct, but people usually are talking about the BODY of Data taken as a whole and therefore the singular is more correct- whether they are aware of the difference or not. This actually is an exception, "data" is correct as Baxter uses it. What interests me is that the argument as to the distinction seems to be a relatively modern one as far as I've seen. Baxter's is an unusually early use in this sense.

[C. F. Leon]

However he still gave the wrong name at the inquest. No matter what it sounds like. My good lady is from the same City as Lawende and states are far as being 'Anglicised' is concerned it would certainly not change to Lavender. She also claims no self respecting Polish person would do such a thing and said they are more likely to add 'ska' or 'ski' to the end to promote the Polish depending on being male or female.

But it is still being written by a court reporter, which is putting down WHAT THEY HEAR. (I don't know, did they have a sign-in at the inquests where each witness could spell their name THEIR preferred way?)

From the examples posted, it looks like the ones written by someone else are "Lavender", the one or two that he would have signed himself are "Lawende". And maybe he just got tired of correcting the spelling every time. My legal given name is "Charles", but for several reasons, I used to go by "Chuck". But I just had TOO many arguments with bureaucrats:

"What's your name?"
"Chuck"
"Your name is Charles here."
"I go by 'Chuck'."
"But you're listed as 'Charles'."
"it's a nickname, like "Jim' for 'James'."
"But your name is 'Charles'."
and so it goes and goes...

I just wasted too much time arguing with idiots, so now I go by "Charles" on all my paperwork.

The records of Ellis Island are filled with people having their name changed by the bureaucrats. (I had a girlfriend whose German grandparents changed their name from "Weis" to "White", but once they were citizens, changed it back.)

[Lewis C]

Hi Lewis,

We certainly can’t exonerate him on time. We could perhaps call it a Goldilocks theory - too little time available and we have a problem, too much time available and we have a problem, but if the timing was just right (as your suggested examples a show) there’s no problem.

It’s difficult to imagine Cross walking along Bucks Row to a point around 20 minutes from clocking in time, seeing Nichols and deciding to kill and mutilate her there and then, leaving himself 15 minutes to perhaps check himself over for blood and then walk on to work.

Ive also wondered, given how close behind him Paul was, if he’d ever previously walked to work and heard a guy behind him. When I was young I used to have to walk along a fairly dim street (although much lighter than Bucks Row of course) so that I could get to a spot where a friend would give me a lift to work. Most mornings two men passed (separately as I waited) On winter mornings when it was dark, after a while, I could even recognise which one was approaching by his steps. We can’t say of course but maybe Cross knew that another guy passed at roughly the same time and on occasion he could hear him depending on timing. And might he not have known that this was a police beat and that a Constable was due at any time? We have no way of knowing of course.

Yes, the idea of him committing this murder right before clocking in for work seems far-fetched to me too.

[Geddy2112]

Lawende wasn't lying. You're missing my point. Levender [sic] could have been a transcription error in the 1876 case, but nobody called him Lavender at the Eddowes inquest. It's usually Lawende, occasionally Lewende. but not Lavender.

Indeed, much better explained than my humorous attempt.

But he was listed as Lavender at his marriage, and in census records, and in burial records. If Lechmereians were consistent, they'd be accusing Lawende of not using his "registered name" at the inquest and using that and Lawende's disagreements with other witnesses on timing and other things as "proof" that Lawende was lying at the Eddowes inquest and must be the Ripper.

Plus he has a very shifty looking tash... hang him.

But these thing are only suspicious when Charles Lechmere does them.

Oh you won't believe the latest bout of postings on FB. The goal posts are not moving they are literally spinning around the field.

[Geddy2112]

Yes, the idea of him committing this murder right before clocking in for work seems far-fetched to me too.

Hi Lewis, absolutely.
To think he would risk losing his job and the ability to support his kids by being late for work is absurd.
Killing someone on the same road he travels six days a week.
To think he would wait around for a passer by to appear then go inform the police.
To bunk off work to nip into the back of Hanbury Street for his indulgence, leaving an unguarded cart.
The list goes on....

I really wish I was at the meeting of the inception of this theory. Would love to have been party to the logic and starting point, but how two 'seemingly educated' men arrived at Lechmere is JtR (and Torsoman) is beyond absurd.

[Fiver]

Yes, the idea of him committing this murder right before clocking in for work seems far-fetched to me too.

If Charles Lechmere was to get all murdery, it would have made a lot more sense to do it after work. A carman's shift was 14 to 18 hours. That variability means on a short day, he'd have 3 or 4 hours to find a victim and clean up afterwards. The timing means he could do it after dark. And if he missed a spot on cleanup, he could blame it on having to deliver improperly packaged meat, regardless of what he actually carried that day.

If the Ripper was a carman, then he was an extremely stupid murderer, yet he somehow managed to not get caught.