Was he lying?

[Geddy2112]

That reminds me of the geneological website, wikitree. On the pages of historically important people, there is a small rectangle that says "____ is a notable". According to Lechmere's wikitree page, he's a notable.

A notable what?

[Geddy2112]

Yeah, we know. As has been declared over and over again. Maybe, don't start another Lechmere thread?

What you talking about Willis? (This is a Lechmere thread..)

[Lewis C]

Thanks for the laugh.

I suppose one of the gang could peddle stopwatches and maps from a stand in Frank Dobson Square as a lucrative side hustle....

I don't know how Ed does it, but I was surprised to see that if one punches "Doveton Street" into Google Maps there's an icon showing the former home of one Charles Allen Lechmere.

What the actual flip.

I suppose the hapless carman will have his own blue plaque someday!

Hi RJ,

That reminds me of the geneological website, wikitree. On the pages of historically important people, there is a small rectangle that says "____ is a notable". According to Lechmere's wikitree page, he's a notable.

[Scott Nelson]

The crux of it is no one in the history of serial killing has done those things, let alone those things twice if you count Hanbury Street within a week or so. Complete and utter bollocks I'm afraid...

Yeah, we know. As has been declared over and over again. Maybe, don't start another Lechmere thread?

[Geddy2112]

I don't know how Ed does it, but I was surprised to see that if one punches "Doveton Street" into Google Maps there's an icon showing the former home of one Charles Allen Lechmere.

What the actual flip.

I suppose the hapless carman will have his own blue plaque someday!

That's probably Ed the tool ... he's told Google there is a hotel there (a business) so now Google will show it. Doveton Street will be on the next Monopoly Edition next.

[rjpalmer]

I wonder if the people who live there now know the history? Or for years have they wondered about an irregular occurence of middle aged men standing outside their home with a stop watch and heading of west at a brisk pace, only to return an hour later and repeat the exercise at a slower pace...

Thanks for the laugh.

I suppose one of the gang could peddle stopwatches and maps from a stand in Frank Dobson Square as a lucrative side hustle....

I don't know how Ed does it, but I was surprised to see that if one punches "Doveton Street" into Google Maps there's an icon showing the former home of one Charles Allen Lechmere.

What the actual flip.

I suppose the hapless carman will have his own blue plaque someday!

[Geddy2112]

...and knowing how much time he needed to allow for the walk alone, would have dabbled along the way in a spot of murder and - with a good pinch of luck - abdominal mutilation, on a street he was by then familiar with, where he could expect a fellow worker, such as Robert Paul was, to come along at any moment and catch him up to his armpits in gore and gristle if he wasn't careful.

Hi caz, and this is one of the many issues with the Lechmere theory. On one hand you get 'no sane' person and on the other you get 'overtly mad' person. Team Lechmere love the 'overtly mad' phrase, I wonder if they actually know the difference between mad and overtly mad in the clinical sense. This is of course to throw the light on Lechmere and not the likes of Kosminski.
However I digress. Psychopath or not I just can't see anyone butchering someone on the way to work, which would make them late and all that entails in a street they travel at roughly the same time six days a week. Especially when they know there is a Policeman (PC 81 GER) maybe only a matter of 50 yards away or a night watchman just around the corner.
I think we should give Lechmere some more credit than that. The crux of it is no one in the history of serial killing has done those things, let alone those things twice if you count Hanbury Street within a week or so. Complete and utter bollocks I'm afraid...

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock.

The same applies to all arguments and theories that rely on times given by witnesses that would inevitably have been estimates in 1888, rounded up or down to the nearest five minutes at best. Even in 2024, with smart phones and watches, most witnesses would not be confident in narrowing down the time of a sighting or conversation to an exact minute.

I remember when I worked for British Gas, back in the early 1980s, we had to clock in and out but our hours were at least flexible - a double-edged sword because if the traffic or the weather made you ten minutes later than your chosen start time, you had to make up the ten minutes at the end of the day or at some other time. When someone in the office had a birthday, we all had to clock out for however long it took to open the cards and pressies and serve cake to everyone! It became a miserable affair, with the birthday girl going as fast as she could so we would not have to make up much time. Modern technology is not always the worker's friend.

Love,

Caz
X

Did you “Tell Sid” that you weren’t happy with it Caz?

[caz]

Hi Caz,

So when we hear people say that Cross’s 4 am start time wouldn’t have been a consideration for him I think that they are looking at the situation as if it was 2024.

Hi Herlock.

The same applies to all arguments and theories that rely on times given by witnesses that would inevitably have been estimates in 1888, rounded up or down to the nearest five minutes at best. Even in 2024, with smart phones and watches, most witnesses would not be confident in narrowing down the time of a sighting or conversation to an exact minute.

I remember when I worked for British Gas, back in the early 1980s, we had to clock in and out but our hours were at least flexible - a double-edged sword because if the traffic or the weather made you ten minutes later than your chosen start time, you had to make up the ten minutes at the end of the day or at some other time. When someone in the office had a birthday, we all had to clock out for however long it took to open the cards and pressies and serve cake to everyone! It became a miserable affair, with the birthday girl going as fast as she could so we would not have to make up much time. Modern technology is not always the worker's friend.

Love,

Caz
X

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi All,

I never really thought this through before, but reading the latest posts brought home to me the sheer unlikelihood of Lechmere leaving home that morning, knowing he had to be at work by 4am at the latest [my father-in-law, who worked in a foundry, used to say that a minute late would result in losing 15 minutes' pay - and no doubt the employer would dictate what the time was on arrival], and knowing how much time he needed to allow for the walk alone, would have dabbled along the way in a spot of murder and - with a good pinch of luck - abdominal mutilation, on a street he was by then familiar with, where he could expect a fellow worker, such as Robert Paul was, to come along at any moment and catch him up to his armpits in gore and gristle if he wasn't careful. And that's assuming Lechmere didn't go off-piste to look for a likely victim along the main Whitechapel Road, only to lure her back to Buck's Row, in the hope - forlorn as it would have turned out - that he would find it totally deserted for as long as he'd have liked to fill his carman's boots. No self-respecting serial killer would choose to lose himself in a bloody pile of innards, while acutely aware that he was due at work in less than 20 minutes and quite likely to have company before then.

The ripper, in my view, would have taken the risk because he wasn't bothered by the clock and Buck's Row was dark and deserted when he arrived with his victim, who may have reassured him that they could find a spot where business could be conducted - as long as he didn't take all day about it. I doubt he'd have been a happy bunny to know that men would shortly be passing by on their way to work, but if he didn't know and saw nobody, he must have felt he could take a chance. I suspect it was Lechmere's approach that alerted the killer to the danger of hanging round in that location a moment longer.

I also keep coming back to the psychology of the tarpaulin, as Lechmere so astutely described 'seeing' from a distance in the darkness, which is the lived experience of so many genuine witnesses whose very last expectation is to stumble across a human corpse as they go about their normal business, and can therefore only see an inanimate object until they get too close to deny the evidence of their own eyes.

Lechmere was not lying about the tarpaulin, IMHO, and was only guilty of a potential shortfall in his wage packet if doing the right thing made him late for work.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

Employers were slightly more considerate when I first worked in a foundry in the 80’s (1980’s by the way) as we were allowed 2 minutes. If you were 3 minutes late you lost 15 minutes pay and if this happened fairly regularly you would find yourself on the first rung of the companies disciplinary procedure. It’s almost impossible to believe that a Victorian employer would have been as employee-friendly at a time of child labour, unfair wages, women getting paid less than men, and no compensation if an unguarded machine happened to pull your arm off! I’m not saying that it would have happened but if Cross’s boss was in a foul mood one morning he could have sacked him on the spot without any fear of tribunals and had someone else sitting in his drivers chair in no time at all. And no Universal Credit for a recently sacked man. No wage, no rent, no food etc. So when we hear people say that Cross’s 4 am start time wouldn’t have been a consideration for him I think that they are looking at the situation as if it was 2024.

So either Cross was so incompetent that he couldn’t find a victim in an area where he would have been almost falling over prostitutes, until 20 minutes before he was due at work, or he saw a woman (again, 20 minutes before he was due to clock on) and he simply couldn’t control himself. I think that we’ve discussed things having the ‘ring of truth’ about them before Caz? The tarpaulin story has that ‘ring of truth’ to me. Another example is when Cross was asked if he’d told Mizen that he was wanted by a Constable? He replied “No, because I did not see a policeman in Buck's-row.” He doesn’t act or even sound like a guilty man.

[caz]

Hi All,

I never really thought this through before, but reading the latest posts brought home to me the sheer unlikelihood of Lechmere leaving home that morning, knowing he had to be at work by 4am at the latest [my father-in-law, who worked in a foundry, used to say that a minute late would result in losing 15 minutes' pay - and no doubt the employer would dictate what the time was on arrival], and knowing how much time he needed to allow for the walk alone, would have dabbled along the way in a spot of murder and - with a good pinch of luck - abdominal mutilation, on a street he was by then familiar with, where he could expect a fellow worker, such as Robert Paul was, to come along at any moment and catch him up to his armpits in gore and gristle if he wasn't careful. And that's assuming Lechmere didn't go off-piste to look for a likely victim along the main Whitechapel Road, only to lure her back to Buck's Row, in the hope - forlorn as it would have turned out - that he would find it totally deserted for as long as he'd have liked to fill his carman's boots. No self-respecting serial killer would choose to lose himself in a bloody pile of innards, while acutely aware that he was due at work in less than 20 minutes and quite likely to have company before then.

The ripper, in my view, would have taken the risk because he wasn't bothered by the clock and Buck's Row was dark and deserted when he arrived with his victim, who may have reassured him that they could find a spot where business could be conducted - as long as he didn't take all day about it. I doubt he'd have been a happy bunny to know that men would shortly be passing by on their way to work, but if he didn't know and saw nobody, he must have felt he could take a chance. I suspect it was Lechmere's approach that alerted the killer to the danger of hanging round in that location a moment longer.

I also keep coming back to the psychology of the tarpaulin, as Lechmere so astutely described 'seeing' from a distance in the darkness, which is the lived experience of so many genuine witnesses whose very last expectation is to stumble across a human corpse as they go about their normal business, and can therefore only see an inanimate object until they get too close to deny the evidence of their own eyes.

Lechmere was not lying about the tarpaulin, IMHO, and was only guilty of a potential shortfall in his wage packet if doing the right thing made him late for work.

Love,

Caz
X

[A P Tomlinson]

Hi Geddy,

All these time estimates can become confusing, but it wouldn't have taken forty minutes to walk from Doveton Street to Broad Street---one estimate frequently tossed around is 25-30 minutes.

David Orsam posted this some years ago:

02-08-2017, 02:12 PM

I did some timings from 22 Doveton Street to the front of Liverpool Street Station.

At a slow walk it took me 31 minutes. At normal walking pace it took 25 minutes. At fast walking pace it took me less than 20 minutes.

--

Steve Blomer's timings are similar, see Post #15:

Bucks Row Project - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

I wonder if the people who live there now know the history? Or for years have they wondered about an irregular occurence of middle aged men standing outside their home with a stop watch and heading of west at a brisk pace, only to return an hour later and repeat the exercise at a slower pace...

[Geddy2112]

...At a slow walk it took me 31 minutes. At normal walking pace it took 25 minutes. At fast walking pace it took me less than 20 minutes.
Ripper Forums[/URL]

That is why they go with the 3:30 am leaving time them. Unless poor Charlie boy went on a mission via Whitechapel High Street of course Thank you.

[rjpalmer]

This is one point I've never 'understood', sorry it's not, there are many but one main reason I do not understand with the Lechmere theory is why they did not go more with the 3:20am leaving time. They argue it took him 40 mins to get to work so surely 3:20am would fit better. The problem there of course is the so called blood evidence and Christer's massive reliance on the time of death 'not far of 3:45am.' He relies on one thing and builds around it. That shows how weak the theory is, it actually tends to contradict itself.

Hi Geddy,

All these time estimates can become confusing, but it wouldn't have taken forty minutes to walk from Doveton Street to Broad Street---one estimate frequently tossed around is 25-30 minutes.

David Orsam posted this some years ago:

02-08-2017, 02:12 PM

I did some timings from 22 Doveton Street to the front of Liverpool Street Station.

At a slow walk it took me 31 minutes. At normal walking pace it took 25 minutes. At fast walking pace it took me less than 20 minutes.

--

Steve Blomer's timings are similar, see Post #15:

Bucks Row Project - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

[Fiver]

In Cutting Point on page 92 he says:


“Most papers speak of Lechmere saying that he left home at 3.30, but the time 3.20 is also mentioned in one paper.”

So he's even wrong on that. 3:20 was an exception, but mentioned in more than one paper.

"CARMAN CROSS was the the next witness. He lived at 22 Doveton Street, Cambridge-road. He was employed by Pickfords. He left home on Friday at twenty minutes past three, and got to Pickford's yard at Broad-Street at four o'clock." - 3 September 1888 Star

"George Cross, a carman, stated that he left home on Friday morning at 20 minutes past 3, and he arrived at his work, at Broad-Street, at 4 o'clock." - 4 September 1888 Times