Why Cross Was Almost Certainly Innocent

[Elamarna]

so lech hears and or sees paul approaching when theyre about 40 yards apart in bucks row but neither do as they are walking toward bucks row? according to lech his hesitation in bucks row sounds like its only seconds, maybe Thirty seconds or so until he notices paul. how do they not notice each other before then?

Why would they see each other before reaching Bucks Row Abby?
If Lechmere passes the bottom of foster just before or as Paul leaves the house, it's very unlikely to put it mildly they would see each other.
I cover this in some detail in Inside Bucks Row, with distances involved and timings

Steve

[Elamarna]

How much of Pickfords' employment records have survived from the relevant period/depot?

That of course is the issue Sam.
If reasonably intact, one would expect at least one of the names to be present.
However, it appears there were no HR records

Steve

[Fiver]

See the following link, Post #74.

Was Lech known as Cross at Pickfords?? - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

"Lechmere," is Ed Stow.

He was allowed to search Pickford's 19th Century records and there was nothing pertaining to individual employees.

Thanks for the link. The Pickford's site claims it was done by a descendant of Lechmere. Is Butler taking credit for his girlfriend's research?

I'd deduced that was the nick being used by Butler on this site. Thanks for confriming that.

I do note the page that Butler shared shows deliveries of Wine & spirits, News/Printed Matter, and Hardware. You think he'd at least have tried to find raw, bleeding, unpackaged meat.

[Fiver]

so lech hears and or sees paul approaching when theyre about 40 yards apart in bucks row but neither do as they are walking toward bucks row? according to lech his hesitation in bucks row sounds like its only seconds, maybe Thirty seconds or so until he notices paul. how do they not notice each other before then?

IIRC, if Lechmere was 50 yards ahead of Paul, the Lechmere wouldn't have been visible until Paul entered Bucks Row.

[JeffHamm]

Why would they see each other before reaching Bucks Row Abby?
If Lechmere passes the bottom of foster just before or as Paul leaves the house, it's very unlikely to put it mildly they would see each other.
I cover this in some detail in Inside Bucks Row, with distances involved and timings

Steve

Yah, and that's what my simulations suggested as well, that there really wasn't a time when Paul would see Cross/Lechmere until after both were in Buck's Row. I think in one of the configurations (I tried a couple of different settings) there was a couple of seconds where it could have been possible, but it was so tight it is hardly a stretch to understand how Paul might not have seen him. Reality isn't a simulation after all (or wait? Is it?) .

Of course, if Paul did see Cross/Lechmere before but just never mentioned that in his testimony, then that's a shame for us as it would resolve the whole issue for all but the most determined.

- Jeff

[Lewis C]

Yes, his testimony clearly says, he saw a shape on the opposite side of the road, crossed into the road to get a better look, and stopped as he realised it was a woman. It was only at this point he saw it was a body.
At the SAME time, he heard footsteps and turned to see Paul around 40 yards behind him, suggesting before he stopped Paul was around 50 yards behind.
So yes he clearly realised it was a woman, at the same time he heard Paul.

Dusty did a good article in Ripperologist some years back, looking at this very point.
I also cover it in some depth in Inside Bucks Row.

If anyone wants to check out this article, it's in issue 142 of Ripperologist, from February 2015.

[Geddy2112]

I do note the page that Butler shared shows deliveries of Wine & spirits, News/Printed Matter, and Hardware. You think he'd at least have tried to find raw, bleeding, unpackaged meat.

Sorry I need to give you an old fashioned 'LOL' for that... thank you, brightened my day.

[Geddy2112]

Yah, and that's what my simulations suggested as well, that there really wasn't a time when Paul would see Cross/Lechmere until after both were in Buck's Row.

Hang on, are you suggesting the latest HOL video is being economical with the truth? According to the HOL there are at least 4 opportunities for Cross/Lechmere to have been seen by Paul and vice versa before entering Bucks Row, even though within seconds the video contradicts itself by showing on film 15 seconds or more of 'blackout territory.' Seriously you can't make it up... although they have tried.

[Geddy2112]

Yes, his testimony clearly says, he saw a shape on the opposite side of the road, crossed into the road to get a better look, and stopped as he realised it was a woman. It was only at this point he saw it was a body.
At the SAME time, he heard footsteps and turned to see Paul around 40 yards behind him, suggesting before he stopped Paul was around 50 yards behind.
So yes he clearly realised it was a woman, at the same time he heard Paul.

With this one post you have to clear Lechmere of any wrong doing. Unless he was porky pieing...

[FrankO]

so lech hears and or sees paul approaching when theyre about 40 yards apart in bucks row but neither do as they are walking toward bucks row? according to lech his hesitation in bucks row sounds like its only seconds, maybe Thirty seconds or so until he notices paul. how do they not notice each other before then?

If it actually was 30 seconds, then Paul would have been another 45 to 52 m or 150 tot 175 feet further away than the 40 yards he was when Lechmere saw him. This would make the total distance between the men before Lechmere reached Buck's Row between 80 and 90 m/90 and 100 yards.

If true, then when Paul closed his front door behind him, Lechmere would have been a few yards away from Brady Street in Bath Street. And when Paul would have reached the corner of Foster & Bath Street, Lechmere would have been some 20 m from the corner of Brady Street, in Buck's Row. And when Paul would have turned into Buck's Row, Lechmere would have been some 10 m/35 ft before reaching the gate to the wool factory and some 35 yards from the crime spot.

Just to give some idea what those 30 seconds would mean by way of relative (approximate) positions at different points in time.

[A P Tomlinson]

Sorry I need to give you an old fashioned 'LOL' for that... thank you, brightened my day.

My recent discussion with Eddy on that thread has Cross quietly stealthing from the body to the middle of the road as Paul approached, and the idea of him having blood on his hands having been interrupted mid killing as not merely "debatable" but... "baseless". That was the point I had to bow out.

Edit to add, sorry Geddy, dropped the ball there... quoted the wrong post. I meant to quote your comment on the HOL post.

[Elamarna]

Yah, and that's what my simulations suggested as well, that there really wasn't a time when Paul would see Cross/Lechmere until after both were in Buck's Row. I think in one of the configurations (I tried a couple of different settings) there was a couple of seconds where it could have been possible, but it was so tight it is hardly a stretch to understand how Paul might not have seen him. Reality isn't a simulation after all (or wait? Is it?) .

Of course, if Paul did see Cross/Lechmere before but just never mentioned that in his testimony, then that's a shame for us as it would resolve the whole issue for all but the most determined.

- Jeff

That is a point I have raised for years Jeff, Paul was not asked one very important question.
"Were you aware of the man ahead of you , before you saw him in the road"

Steve

[Elamarna]

If it actually was 30 seconds, then Paul would have been another 45 to 52 m or 150 tot 175 feet further away than the 40 yards he was when Lechmere saw him. This would make the total distance between the men before Lechmere reached Buck's Row between 80 and 90 m/90 and 100 yards.

If true, then when Paul closed his front door behind him, Lechmere would have been a few yards away from Brady Street in Bath Street. And when Paul would have reached the corner of Foster & Bath Street, Lechmere would have been some 20 m from the corner of Brady Street, in Buck's Row. And when Paul would have turned into Buck's Row, Lechmere would have been some 10 m/35 ft before reaching the gate to the wool factory and some 35 yards from the crime spot.

Just to give some idea what those 30 seconds would mean by way of relative (approximate) positions at different points in time.

Nice work Frank, I see you are using a walking pace of approx 3- 3.5 mph.

Steve

[FrankO]

Nice work Frank, I see you are using a walking pace of approx 3- 3.5 mph.

Steve

Thanks, Steve. I used 5.5 kmph/3.4 mph at the slower (but still rather quick) end of the range and 6.3 kmph/3.9 mph at the fast end of it.

Cheers,
Frank

[Elamarna]

Thanks, Steve. I used 5.5 kmph/3.4 mph at the slower (but still rather quick) end of the range and 6.3 kmph/3.9 mph at the fast end of it.

Cheers,
Frank

Yes, my mistake I read the 45-52 as yards, rather than meters

Steve