Why Cross Was Almost Certainly Innocent

[drstrange169]

"... there was access to Winthrop Street through the Stores Room that was at the back of the stable yard."

I believe the Store room in Winthrop St was a separate building to Brown's Yard with no access from one to the other.

" There is opinion that Polly may have been expecting the stable door to be unlocked when she took clients there ..."

Part of PC Neil's job was to check business premises, yards and buildings were locked.

Never say never, particularly in the jtr case, but I think it unlikely these were viable options.

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

It’s a clever suggestion and certainly one that I hadn’t heard before. If my reaction was a bit ‘lukewarm’ it’s only because I’m convinced that as soon as he heard footsteps the killer would have been gone. Your suggestion is certain something that we can’t disprove though.

Hi Herlock,

Stepping into the stable yard would have been a quick way of disappearing without being heard running away. The stables had been recently sold and the fittings were in the process of disposal. Apparently the gate had a smaller access door (like at Berner St) and there was access to Winthrop Street through the Stores Room that was at the back of the stable yard. The stores room would be the more likely to have an external lock to allow Brown to bolt the stable door from the inside and leave via the Stores Room. There is opinion that Polly may have been expecting the stable door to be unlocked when she took clients there, and if it was Jack could have slipped into the stable yard, bolted the door, and listened to the carmen discussing whether Polly was still alive. After emerging and cutting Polly's throat he bolts the gate behind him and leaves via the stores room, assuming it had a lock, like at Millers Court, that locked when you left but could still be opened without a key from the inside. He'd have to get past Malshaw, but he admitted at the inquest that he sometimes dozed.

Just considering the possibilities.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Kunochan,

When I proposed this possibility a little while ago it was meet with a distinct lack of enthusiasm. The police found that Brown's stable yard door was locked, but I've not been able to find out whether that meant pad locked or bolted from the inside (or outside).

The theory is, Jack strangles Poly and begins the mutilations. He hears Cross coming and conceals himself nearby. He hears the carmen talking and Paul say that he thought he could hear her breathing. The carmen depart and Jack ensures Poly's silence by cutting her throat (and learning a lesson for his future murders). Llewellyn stated that in his opinion the throat cut was made after the mutilations, and it would explain why neither carmen noticed the open wound in the neck.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

It’s a clever suggestion and certainly one that I hadn’t heard before. If my reaction was a bit ‘lukewarm’ it’s only because I’m convinced that as soon as he heard footsteps the killer would have been gone. Your suggestion is certain something that we can’t disprove though.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I believe it was mentioned in the Echo coverage of the inquest published 3 September.

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/echo/18880903.html

Cheers, George

Thanks George. Isn’t it strange. Forty years and the term ‘Wool Warehouse’ hadn’t stuck in my mind.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Wool warehaouse pointed!



I'm pretty busy at the moment, but I will have some new insights on what could seen and by whom that I can hopefully post later.

Well would you believe it! Actually yes I would. Is there such a condition as ‘map blindness?’ That’s how I’d describe myself. Maps, directions etc.

Cheers Dusty. I still deserve an though.

[Geddy2112]

Whoa. I'd never heard of this possibility before. It seems unlikely, but not impossible. Anyway, it's a fun idea.

Not as unlikely as Cross doing the slashing and none dashing...

[Geddy2112]

I have to say that your mathematical application if far better than Dusty's. He added the sides of the triangle (56+25) to get 82? which then turned into 100 feet.

Dusty's picture is very nice and bright, but Neil testified that there was only one lamp working and that it was at the end of the row. The application of evidence for the picture has Cross spotting a shape, which he said he could not tell what it was at first, but it looked like a tarpaulin. He turns 90 degrees left and walks to the middle of the road and it is suddenly clear that the shape is the body of a woman. I don't think so. I think he left out a few words in his testimony, which should have been:
I walked (on and crossed) to the centre of the road and saw it was a woman.

Hi, I'm not sure how Dusty go to their 100 feet. It should be (56x56) + (25x25) then the square root of that number. Hence I got the 60 odd. The picture for me is fine, it's not supposed to show the lighting conditions but rather the movements of the players.

[C. F. Leon]

Hi Kunochan,

When I proposed this possibility a little while ago it was meet with a distinct lack of enthusiasm. The police found that Brown's stable yard door was locked, but I've not been able to find out whether that meant pad locked or bolted from the inside (or outside).

The theory is, Jack strangles Poly and begins the mutilations. He hears Cross coming and conceals himself nearby. He hears the carmen talking and Paul say that he thought he could hear her breathing. The carmen depart and Jack ensures Poly's silence by cutting her throat (and learning a lesson for his future murders). Llewellyn stated that in his opinion the throat cut was made after the mutilations, and it would explain why neither carmen noticed the open wound in the neck.

Cheers, George

Possible but probably unlikely. However, Jack is certainly learning and refining his technique as he goes. And possibly changing his goals.

[GBinOz]

Whoa. I'd never heard of this possibility before. It seems unlikely, but not impossible. Anyway, it's a fun idea.

Hi Kunochan,

When I proposed this possibility a little while ago it was meet with a distinct lack of enthusiasm. The police found that Brown's stable yard door was locked, but I've not been able to find out whether that meant pad locked or bolted from the inside (or outside).

The theory is, Jack strangles Poly and begins the mutilations. He hears Cross coming and conceals himself nearby. He hears the carmen talking and Paul say that he thought he could hear her breathing. The carmen depart and Jack ensures Poly's silence by cutting her throat (and learning a lesson for his future murders). Llewellyn stated that in his opinion the throat cut was made after the mutilations, and it would explain why neither carmen noticed the open wound in the neck.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Could someone point me to the piece that mentions the Wool Warehouse? I’m certainly not doubting that it was mentioned but, and I don’t know if this will be a surprise, in 40 years of interest in the case it’s only in the last few days that I can recall mention of it. Steve must have mentioned it in Inside Bucks Row I assume but I just don’t recall it. When I heard it mentioned recently my reaction was “what Wool Warehouse?”

Hi Herlock,

I believe it was mentioned in the Echo coverage of the inquest published 3 September.

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/echo/18880903.html

Cheers, George

[drstrange169]

Wool warehaouse pointed!



I'm pretty busy at the moment, but I will have some new insights on what could seen and by whom that I can hopefully post later.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Could someone point me to the piece that mentions the Wool Warehouse? I’m certainly not doubting that it was mentioned but, and I don’t know if this will be a surprise, in 40 years of interest in the case it’s only in the last few days that I can recall mention of it. Steve must have mentioned it in Inside Bucks Row I assume but I just don’t recall it. When I heard it mentioned recently my reaction was “what Wool Warehouse?”

[Kunochan]

At this juncture in time was the throat cut? Was Jacky Boy hiding around the corner and came back to finish the job when Cross and Paul left? Is that the reason there was apparently little blood? Who knows... certainly a few things in the Ripper Murders that does not make sense, this is one of them I think.

Whoa. I'd never heard of this possibility before. It seems unlikely, but not impossible. Anyway, it's a fun idea.

[GBinOz]

I know GB is not. I used that to explain I'm trying to say he was anything but. Your reasons for not going diagonally are correct, however I'd suspect most folk in the same situation would take the diagonal route and I think that is important, as basic maths will tell you a Greek chap explained the diagonal of a right angled triangle is the longer distance.
Cross said 'by' the gate of the Wool Warehouse, I think that is slightly before, as 'at' the gateway would have meant directly in front of it and 'just past' of course what it says. Even though just past is still not as close as TL would like it.



I know people are laughing at me for suggesting these distances but for me they are accurate. Just because we do not think we can see something from 30 feet, 27.5 feet or now 22.5 feet that does not mean Cross could not. His eyes will have been used to the lighting and adapted to suit. Plus I consider some confirmation bias in what the witnesses said, a bit like Mizen assuming Cross meant a PC because there was a PC there when he arrived. Cross may have said he noticed it was a body because when he eventually got to touching distance it was a body. Maybe this is what is at play here.

I can't accept this possibility because he told Paul at their initial meeting that it was the body of a woman.

From the Ripperologist 142, I'm sure they did not get the scrutiny I am and they were going from 100 feet away. I know this is when Cross and Paul meet up with both men walking towards each other. However it certainly does not rule out any of the distances I'm stating.



The picture Dusty used kind of puts it all into perspective I think.

Hi Geddy,

I have to say that your mathematical application if far better than Dusty's. He added the sides of the triangle (56+25) to get 82? which then turned into 100 feet.

Dusty's picture is very nice and bright, but Neil testified that there was only one lamp working and that it was at the end of the row. The application of evidence for the picture has Cross spotting a shape, which he said he could not tell what it was at first, but it looked like a tarpaulin. He turns 90 degrees left and walks to the middle of the road and it is suddenly clear that the shape is the body of a woman. I don't think so. I think he left out a few words in his testimony, which should have been:
I walked (on and crossed) to the centre of the road and saw it was a woman.

The testimony of Cross, Paul and Neil all emphasised that it was very dark. From my experience, if the shape were approached as in Dusty's picture, you would have to be very close to determine that it was the body of a woman, and you would not be in the centre of the road - more like "where the woman was". If crossing from opposite the woman, that identification could be made from the centre of the road.

For those that are in doubt as to what can and can't be seen, recruit a volunteer on a very dark night and see for yourself what can and can't be seen from different angles and distances.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well distance is important if a bomb goes off. I get your point though, in the bigger picture it's not important I just wanted to try and make sense of the 'scene' so to speak. To get a picture in my head of the 'geography' in the street that morning. I was trying to see if the theory was even more ridiculous than them using phrases like 'standing over a freshly killed victim' etc. But yes your points are correct.

Can’t argue with the bomb point. I’ve had a bit of a stressed day so I need to have a second look at the argument for the do]inference of opinion on distances but I’d certainly stress the obvious..that it’s difficult to exactly recreate the unknown. Light, level of shadow, eye sight etc. It’s certainly not impossible for a short distance to make a big difference in what we see. A ‘shape’ seen a little closer might reveal legs etc.