Why Cross Was Almost Certainly Innocent

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Mike,

While I think it's likely he was woken by a knocker-up rather than a timepiece of his own, the introduction of a knocker-up could indeed open up a whole new can of worms. Because how would that work? Would he only decide on the morning after having woken up whether he would kill? If so, and he was always knocked up at a fixed time (meaning: as fixed as possible), say 3.15 as you say, then how would he ever have time to look for a victim? And what if the he was overwhelmed with the urge to kill somebody before he went to bed? Or if he just wanted some time to look for a victim this time instead of having to settle for any woman he came upon on his way to work? And what if he got up on some mornings before being knocked up and his wife would find the bed empty when she woke up by the knock on the window?

It would not make things any easier.

Cheers,
Frank

Totally agree Frank. If it had been reported that he’d been knocked up it would be a final nail in the coffin imo.

[A P Tomlinson]

When I think of the Lechmere theory and its two main proponents, I'm reminded of when my Granddad died and we bought my Nan a budgie to keep her company. She named it Frankie after him. I asked her how did she know it was male and she replied 'Because it's called Frankie'.

I hope you don't mind if I steal this and re-tell it as the "Grandma's Budgie" line of thinking when addressing the "evidence" cited against Cross.

[Fiver]

I am just not sure at what point Lechmere and Paul would have walked down Brady Street.


Covering for each other may have been a clever way out. Claiming they were there at different times helps to cover a wider time frame.

If they were covering for each other, Paul and Lechmere would have claimed to meet at Forster and Bath, walked down Bath together, crossed Brady together, walked down Bucks Row together, and found the body together.

[Fiver]

I just don't believe that the killer would have chosen Bucks Row as his primary kill site as there's no natural escape points.

Coroner Baxter : Whitechapel-road is busy in the early morning, I believe. Could anybody have escaped that way?
PC Neil: Oh yes, sir. I saw a number of women in the main road going home. At that time any one could have got away.

[Geddy2112]

If they were covering for each other, Paul and Lechmere would have claimed to meet at Forster and Bath, walked down Bath together, crossed Brady together, walked down Bucks Row together, and found the body together.

Has there ever been any serious suggestion Paul killed Polly then doubled back etc?

I've just re-watched 'The evidence of guilt part II' (or as much of it as I could before wishing to stab hot needles into my retinas) and apart from spending the first ten mins repeating himself RE the previous episode (my point about being desperate to get on the 'telly') Ed contradicts himself so much. The one in the video where he says he was looking West whilst killing Polly to see if he could spot the Police, even though she is facing the other way so would have to been quite double jointed. He then mentions seeing Paul approach from the East. How is this possible?
I seriously am struggling to comprehend why so many people (sheep) following his videos, comment WITHOUT pointing out the 'material inaccuracies.' I'm not sure I can continue with them, they are completely littered with contradictions.

[Fiver]

Because he wouldn't have gone to work that day?

The court reporter thought it was odd, so he pointed it out.

The reporter did not think that Lechmere wearing work clothes was odd. They did not single Lechmere out for description.

"The coroner, however, on this occasion was Mr. Wynne Baxter, who, fresh from his Scandinavian tour, appeared at the inquest in a pair of black and white checked trousers, a dazzling white waistcoat, a crimson scarf and a dark coat."

"The Father of the Murdered Woman,an old, grey-headed, and grey-bearded man, who, with head lowered and hands behind his back, came slowly up to the table and gave the name of Edward Walker, his residence being at 16, Maidwood-street, Albany-road, Camberwell."

"John Neil, the police constable of the J Division of police who found the body - a tall, fresh-coloured man, with brown hair, and straw coloured moustache and imperial."

"Dr. Llewellyn, 152, Whitechapel-road, quiet and sedate, as befitted a man who had just come fresh from the unpleasant ordeal of making a post-mortem examination."

"The husband of the woman - William Nicholls - is a printer's machinist, and he came to the mortuary dressed in a long black coat, with a black tie, trousers of dark material, and a tall silk hat. He carried an umbrella, and looked very quiet and very gentlemanly. He is very pale, with a full light brown beard and moustache."

"The first witness called was Inspector John Sparling [Spratling], a keen-eyed man with iron-grey hair and beard, dressed in the regulation blue of the force."

"Henry Tomkins, a rough looking man, was next called."

"Charles A. Cross, a carman, who appeared in court with a rough sack apron on, said he had been in the employment of Messrs. Pickford & Co. for some years."

"William Nicholls, of 20, Coburg-road, Old Kent-road, next came from his seat near the police, dressed as on Saturday in his long black coat, black tie, and dark coloured trousers, and looking exceedingly pale."

"Emily Holland, an elderly woman in a brown dress, with a dolman and bonnet, whose naturally pale face was flushed with excitement, and who gave her address in a frightened manner, which necessitated the coroner frequently urging her to speak up, was then called."

"Mary Ann Monk - a young woman with a flushed face and a haughty air, who wore a long grey ulster - was the last witness."

The odd men out are not Lechmere, but Inspector Helson and PC Mizen, the only ones to not be described.

Why are you assuming Lechmere couldn't have worked a half-day after testifying? Why are you assuming there was anything about a carman being dressed as a carman?

[Fiver]

The argument of the Lechmere mob is that the route to Mitre Square, after the Elizabeth Stride murder, would have followed Lech's old route to work, before he moved to Doveton.

And then we know for a fact that JtR made his whereabouts known, after the Eddowes murder, immediately off of Old Montague Street, in the direction of Doveton & well poised to take Lechmere's current work route home, if he were indeed Lech.

But of course we know he was not, so all this is just a mad coincidence.

That is their argument, but it's based on speculation and ignoring everyone who wasn't Charles Lechmere. We have no idea what Lechmere's route from his old address to his work was. There is no evidence that Lechemere ever used Old Montague Street to go to work. The idea that he would walk to work using a route he no longer walked at 1am on his only day off makes no sense. The shortest route from Goulston Street of 22 Doveton would not follow Old Montague Street or Lechmere's normal route from work. Killing Stride and Eddowes would have required Lechmere to stay up 23+ hours or get up 3+ hours on his only day off.

But why let the facts get in the way of a theory.

[Fiver]

If it happened that way, why deny it? It wouldn't implicate him in anything, and Paul's testimony wouldn't conflict with his.
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If guilty, he had every reason to suspend the examination and get the hell out of there.

If Lechmere just wanted to get out of there, he would have walked off in the night when he heard Paul approaching. He wouldn't have stopped Paul when Paul tried to avoid him. He would have split up, instead of walking with Paul to find a policeman. He would have just kept walking and let Paul speak to PC Mizen. He wouldn't have walked with Paul for several more minutes, almost as far as Spitalfields Market.

[Fiver]

"But what would have stopped him going to work after he’d testified?"

And what would have stopped him putting five hours work before he testified?

My personal thoughts are that because he was brought in to be specifically identified by Mizen, he was asked to wear the apron.

PC Mizen doesn't impress me as the shiniest apple on the tree. Wearing his work clothes would make it easier for Mizen to identify Cross.

[rjpalmer]

Has there ever been any serious suggestion Paul killed Polly then doubled back etc?

Hi Geddy.

Robert Paul, Jack the Ripper? - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

Enjoy.

If Walter Dew's memory can be believed, the police were quite suspicious of the behavior of one of the Buck's Row witnesses, who they initially had difficulty in tracing. If this is accurate--and the jury is out--this seems more likely to fit Robert Paul than Charles Cross.

[Geddy2112]

Ed Stow states and I paraphrase that he believes the Jack The Ripper name was influenced by a series of adverts in the East London observer. He goes on to state he believes the Dear Boss letter first to coin the nickname was indeed the work of Charles Lechmere.
Do we have any hand writing samples of Charles Lechmere to compare? I was under the impression it was most certainly the work of journalists who wrote the Dear Boss (and other) letters.

The Lipski case (murder of Miriam Angel) influenced the mind of Jack the Ripper.

Did it? How do you know?

The areas discussed (previous cases of murder, and tiger mauling) would be very familiar to Lechmere from his youth. If things like this happened on your doorstep, then they will inevitably have some sort of impact on your subconscious. And that is why THEY ARE EVIDENCE OF GUILT.

They are what now? Evidence of guilt, send him to the gallows. I mean really with that statement alone Ed Stow should be stripped of any credibility he has. That has to be one of the biggest bits of, dare it stupidity I’ve heard on the internet for a long time. Does he mean, again with his psychology qualifications that every teenage boy within a square mile of these events should turn out to be a serial killer? That statement is absolutely absurd.
As an example, as a teenage lad I was one of the first if not the first on the scene of a murder back in Nov 1985. I used to help deliver the poor ladies’ newspaper. I did not turn out to be her killer or indeed a killer later in life. I was not suspected of killing her and I did give my correct home address when interviewed.
My father being from the North East and having to travel at least once a month to Bradford for work was interviewed many times in the Yorkshire Ripper case, again this did not make me turn out to be a serial killer or even a criminal, although I do recall stealing a sweet from Woolies Pick N Mix.
So this statement by Stow claiming it’s ‘evidence’ of Lechmere’s guilt is unbelievable. I lost a mouth full of coffee over my computer screen when he said it. Another video with one point of ‘evidence’ out of over 20 mins just so he could get his face on the telly.

[Fiver]

Has there ever been any serious suggestion Paul killed Polly then doubled back etc?

I've just re-watched 'The evidence of guilt part II' (or as much of it as I could before wishing to stab hot needles into my retinas) and apart from spending the first ten mins repeating himself RE the previous episode (my point about being desperate to get on the 'telly') Ed contradicts himself so much. The one in the video where he says he was looking West whilst killing Polly to see if he could spot the Police, even though she is facing the other way so would have to been quite double jointed. He then mentions seeing Paul approach from the East. How is this possible?
I seriously am struggling to comprehend why so many people (sheep) following his videos, comment WITHOUT pointing out the 'material inaccuracies.' I'm not sure I can continue with them, they are completely littered with contradictions.

I've only managed parts of a couple. Even when Stow isn't contradicting himself or the evidence, he's speculating and making assumptions.

[Fiver]

Ed Stow states and I paraphrase that he believes the Jack The Ripper name was influenced by a series of adverts in the East London observer. He goes on to state he believes the Dear Boss letter first to coin the nickname was indeed the work of Charles Lechmere.
Do we have any hand writing samples of Charles Lechmere to compare? I was under the impression it was most certainly the work of journalists who wrote the Dear Boss (and other) letters.

I agree, the best known letters were probably the work of journalists. For Charles Lechmere we have his signature at his own wedding and as a witness for his mother's third marriage and the marriages of his children Elizabeth, Thomas, and Mary. That's not enough to compare handwriting.

[John Wheat]

I agree, the best known letters were probably the work of journalists. For Charles Lechmere we have his signature at his own wedding and as a witness for his mother's third marriage and the marriages of his children Elizabeth, Thomas, and Mary. That's not enough to compare handwriting.

I think your wrong Fiver. Lechmere wrote all the Ripper letters, murdered the C5 and was also The Thames Torso Killer and killed numerous other women in Victorian London.

[FISHY1118]

That's the point..

Nobody else came forward to give a different version because how could they if it didn't happen in the first place?!

It would be like coming forward to the police and saying...

"Officer, I have a different version of events to that Schwartz fellow.... It didn't happen the way he said... because nobody else saw or heard anything and I am not one for making up stories like that Packer fellow!"


RD

That's like saying nobody else heard a voice say "No" and the "Thud" of something hitting the fence at Annie Chapmans murder so it didn't happen.

Did Albert Cadosch make that up ?

As many have already stated, the attack on stride could have lasted as little as 30 to seconds . There need not have been anyone else in that direct area at that exact moment othe than Schwartz ,Stride, ,B.S and pipeman .