The cross/lechmere theory - a newbie's thoughts

[Newbie]

Here's a map of the Broad street station.
The Pickford's work place for the Carmen would be to the left off of Liverpool street.
On the other side of the street would be the Liverpool station.

From this website is a description of the layout of the station, with a quick description of Pickfords.

https://www.lmssociety.org.uk/topics/BroadStGds.php

[The Baron]

My point is he noticed a policeman or someone, no matter who, Mizen or Neil or any one and he panicked and turned around.

And Mizen's beat is not entirely clear to me.


The Baron

[Newbie]

Good post and I agree, I was just saying that we cannot take the words of Lechmere as facts if he might have been guilty.


The scenario I am suggesting, is simple:

A guilty Lechmere killed Nichols, left the spot and walked west, he noticed Mizen, maybe Mizen was just going out Court street and heading towards Baker's Row, he was calling people out, Lechmere panicked and turned around and walked back, during which he got rid of the Knife somewhere.

And then he encountered Paul and we know the rest.


The Baron

You mean PC Neil, correct Baron? Mizen was on Hanbury street.

[rjpalmer]

It was an example, we know where he was when Lechmere and Paul met him, but 5-10 minutes before?!


The Baron

Why do you have PC Mizen walking PC Neil's beat?

You said Lechmere left Buck's Row until he got spooked by Mizen.

But Mizen is an H-Division constable and is walking a beat (not entirely known) to the west of these immediate streets.

Court Street is part of PC John Neil's beat.

[Newbie]

'Chas. Andrew Cross, carman, said he had been in the employment of Messrs. Pickford and Co. for over twenty years. About half-past three on Friday he left his home to go to work, and he passed through Buck's-row.'

Lechmere's testimony stated he passed through Bucks Row. Now considering he lived East of the crime scene you can safely assume the passing through Bucks Row meant he entered it at the East end and exited via the West end. Otherwise he was going in the completely wrong direction to work.

So you would approve Geddy of us using the 3:30 am departure time as a jumping off point, no?

It took me a bit of time to come up with a satisfactory distance Lechmere would need to walk every morning, from 22 Doveton Street to the Broad street Depot of Pickfords.

I came up with the Pickford's entrance on Livepool street, between Liverpool station and the Broad Street station ( i'll provide a map of the Broad street station below ).

I came up with 1.74 miles from 22 Doveton to Pickford's carman entrances .... if wrong, please let me know.

Lechmere’s start time	Walking rate to arrive at Pickford’s at 4 am ( 1.74 mile walk)	Arrival time at Polly Nichols’ body - 845 yards (assuming no stops & walking at steady rate)
3:20 am	2.62 mph / 1.28 y/s	3:31 am ( 11 min )
3:25 am	2.98 mph / 1.46 y/s	3:34:39 am ( 9 min, 39 s )
3:28 am	3.26 mph / 1.59 y/s	3:36:51 am ( 8 min, 51 s )
3: 30 am	3.48 mph / 1.7 y/s	3:38:07 am ( 8 min, 7 s )
3:32 am	3.73 mph / 1.82 y/s	3:39:44 am ( 7 min, 42 s )
3:34 am	4.02 mph / 1.97 y/s	3:41:09 am ( 7 min, 9 s )

Now, this would be Lechmere time, and Lechmere would attempt to synchronize this time with that of Pickfords,
who themselves would be hooked up to the time schedule of Broad Street station. Railroads being sticklers for accurate times
and being hooked up with Greenwich time.

So, Geddy! If Lech left at/around 3:30 am, like you insist, we would expect him to want to make it to Pickford's on time and walk at the rate of 3.48 mph:
faster then normal .... approaching a brisk rate.

Paul, on the other hand, only needs to go 0.87 miles on his walk to work from 30 Forster street ..... 50 yards down Corbet's court.
(Somewhere I read his work place was 150 yards from 29 Hanbury street )

Paul’s start time (30 forster street)	Walking rate to arrive at Corbett’s court ( 0.87 mile walk)	Arrival time at Polly Nichols’ body 235 yards (assuming no stops & walking at steady rate)
3:36 am	2.175 mph ( 1.06 y/s)	3:39:41 am
3:38 am	2.4 mph (1.17 y/s)	3:41:28 am
3:40 am	2.62 mph (1.25 y/s)	3:43:08 am
3:42 am	2.9 mph (1.38 y/s)	3:44:52 am
3:44 am	3.26 mph (1.59 y/s)	3:46:27 am

Now, Paul thought it was 3:45 am when he turned up Buck's row, and he was 'hurrying' along; that would mean that in his mind he left home at 3:44 am,
and proceeded at a certain pace to get to work. It doesn't matter how accurate this time actually was .... the only important point is that Paul believed it and would have acted accordingly.

Paul's pace to work would have been 3.26 mph.

Now, as you can see Geddy, Paul would have been traveling about 0.25 mph slower than Lechmere on his way to work,
and yet, according to Lechmere's testimony, Paul was gaining on Lechmere up Buck's row.

Can you clarify this for me Geddy?

Did Lech stop to take a leak on Buck's row, did he stop to do a butt scratch against some non functioning lantern, did he have cramps slowing him down ......?

Sock it to me!

[The Baron]

I'm fine with Lechmere tucking it back into a coat pocket.

I want to look for any possible way that allows Lechmere to get rid of the knife.

I am testing a completely different Lechmere than the fear-free psychopath version of the old testament.



The Baron

[The Baron]

What is Mizen doing in Court Street?

It was an example, we know where he was when Lechmere and Paul met him, but 5-10 minutes before?!


The Baron

[rjpalmer]

he noticed Mizen, maybe Mizen was just going out Court street and heading towards Baker's Row, he was calling people out, Lechmere panicked and turned around and walked back, during which he got rid of the Knife somewhere.

What is Mizen doing in Court Street?

[Herlock Sholmes]

. "He then heard the footsteps of a man going up Buck's-row, about forty yards away, in the direction that he himself had come from"


This doesn't ring quite spontaneous and automatic thing to say, does it, it seems as if Lechmere was intentionally and deliberately trying to show the jury that he also was coming from that direction..

It begins with the word ‘he.’

This isn’t Cross speaking. It’s someone reporting the gist of what he’d said and meant.

[The Baron]

Hi Baron,

no, it doesn't sound spontaneous at all.

My problem with Lech first hearing Paul's footsteps when he was in the middle of the street by the body is:

A. If he had moved away from the body and was standing near it in the middle of the road, facing Paul once spotted, then he would need to explain why he was situated there in a manner that would not prejudice him. Towards this end, there is only one story possible which happened to be the one he deposed at the inquest.

B. He would have had to ignore the footsteps marching behind him along Buck's row for up to a minute; according to Lechmere's own testimony, those footsteps would have to be moving faster than he .... not marching in unison.

C. At the point of discovery of the sound, he was focused on visually annalyzing the body. Neural scientists will tell you the brain does not multitask between aural and visual stimuli very well, and that it would be highly unlikely as to this being the point where he suddenly heard footsteps.

Now, if you believe that the starting point of any evaluation is Lechmere's innocence, then by working backwards you can accept anything.
I'm not disposed towards that line of reasoning.

Good post and I agree, I was just saying that we cannot take the words of Lechmere as facts if he might have been guilty.


The scenario I am suggesting, is simple:

A guilty Lechmere killed Nichols, left the spot and walked west, he noticed Mizen, maybe Mizen was just going out Court street and heading towards Baker's Row, he was calling people out, Lechmere panicked and turned around and walked back, during which he got rid of the Knife somewhere.

And then he encountered Paul and we know the rest.


The Baron

[Newbie]

This is exactly what I am looking for, possibilities how a guilty Lechmere might have been able to get rid of the knife.


Thank you, so we have now a drain (I am sill looking to see a confirmation of a possible location) and over the wall to the train tracks

This looks promising



The Baron

I'm fine with Lechmere tucking it back into a coat pocket.

For some reason, we were lead to believe (by Christer) that the police would frisk him / strip search him / empty his pockets, etc. if they had known of his discovering the body. I bought into it that .... why not? Now, I just don't believe that presented any danger to someone 'discovering' the body, before ripper mania emerged.

They'd take his name, address, Ipad telephone number ....

Lechmere only had to convince Paul, nobody else!

Avoiding the police would be advisable, but not crucial.

[Newbie]

Lechmere/Cross:

"He then heard the footsteps of a man going up Buck's-row, about forty yards away, in the direction that he himself had come from"


This doesn't ring quite spontaneous and automatic thing to say, does it, it seems as if Lechmere was intentionally and deliberately trying to show the jury that he also was coming from that direction..

Maybe he was not coming from that direction?


"The other man left witness soon after. Witness had never seen him before."

If Lechmere used to come from that same direction as Paul it seems strange that Lechmere had never seen him before.


Paul:

"Before he reached Buck's-row he had seen no one running away."


Paul didn't notice nor hear Lechmere walking in front of him at that direction.



The Baron

Hi Baron,

no, it doesn't sound spontaneous at all.

My problem with Lech first hearing Paul's footsteps when he was in the middle of the street by the body is:

A. If he had moved away from the body and was standing near it in the middle of the road, facing Paul once spotted, then he would need to explain why he was situated there in a manner that would not prejudice him. Towards this end, there is only one story possible which happened to be the one he deposed at the inquest.

B. He would have had to ignore the footsteps marching behind him along Buck's row for up to a minute; according to Lechmere's own testimony, those footsteps would have to be moving faster than he .... not marching in unison.

C. At the point of discovery of the sound, he was focused on visually annalyzing the body. Neural scientists will tell you the brain does not multitask between aural and visual stimuli very well, and that it would be highly unlikely as to this being the point where he suddenly heard footsteps.

Now, if you believe that the starting point of any evaluation is Lechmere's innocence, then by working backwards you can accept anything.
I'm not disposed towards that line of reasoning.

[Lewis C]

He could have easily got rid of the knife, he could have lobbed it over the wall onto the train tracks very quickly. The having a knife on him is within a very long list of reasons why Lechmere was not JtR for me.

If you mean thrown it that far from a position right in front of Nichols body, I question whether the train tracks are close enough for that to be possible.

[Lewis C]

Hi Fiver,

I don't see anything in your post that is even close to refute the possibility that Lechmere may have not come from the same direction as Paul.

I stand by all the points in my original post.



The Baron

If all that you're saying is that we don't know with 100% certainty that Cross never walked to the east that morning, I accept that.

[The Baron]

he could have lobbed it over the wall onto the train tracks very quickly.

This is exactly what I am looking for, possibilities how a guilty Lechmere might have been able to get rid of the knife.


Thank you, so we have now a drain (I am sill looking to see a confirmation of a possible location) and over the wall to the train tracks

This looks promising



The Baron