The Chapman murder and Charles Lechmere

[moonbegger]

Hi Moonbegger,

At the risk of being called ' wishy washy' by Ed, I am with you on the credibility of Lech. using his stepfather's name as a 'get out of jail free card' when faced with officialdom. What I don't find credible is that this would carry any weight with the coroner.

MrB

Hello Mr B .. Its not as if he was using a false name , after all Cross was (at the very least) once his legal name .. And he did give an address in open inquest .. I don't think too many strings would have needed to be pulled to accommodate a police officers son .

And the very rules that guide us today may have their roots firmly planted in our past ?

Applications for witness anonymity can be made pre-trial under sections 74 to 85 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. The orders known as investigation anonymity orders can be requested at the very start of an investigation thus providing early certainty to people, who may have relevant information, that their identities will not be disclosed.

Investigation anonymity orders are only available in limited circumstances, which are:


1. that a qualifying offence has been committed (murder or manslaughter where the death was caused by being shot with a firearm or injured with a knife);

Cheers ,

Moonbegger

[MrBarnett]

Morning Moonbegger,

The Coroner's Act of 1887 allowed the coroner to use his discretion in matters of secrecy, so what you suggest is perfectly possible. But I think there would have to have been a unique risk to Charles and his family before that would sway the likes of Baxter.

Unless there was some ongoing connection between Charles, his stepdad's old police pals and Baxter himself. Maybe they were members of the same club, or secret society... (only kidding).

Regards,

MrB

[moonbegger]

Morning Moonbegger,

The Coroner's Act of 1887 allowed the coroner to use his discretion in matters of secrecy, so what you suggest is perfectly possible. But I think there would have to have been a unique risk to Charles and his family before that would sway the likes of Baxter.

Regards,

MrB

Hello Mr B ,

The thing to keep in mind , is that at the time of Polly's Murder , it was widely suspected that a Vicious gang was responsible for the previous two murders as well as the murder of Polly . As the Evening news of 31st ...

an opinion is gaining ground amongst them that the murderers are the same who committed the two previous murders near the same spot. It is believed that these gangs, who make their appearance during the early hours of the morning, are in the habit of blackmailing these poor unfortunate creatures, and when their demands are refused, violence follows, and in order to avoid their deeds being brought to light they put away their victims. They have been under the observation of the police for some time past, and it is believed that with the prospect of a reward and a free pardon, some of them might be persuaded to turn Queen's evidence, when some startling revelations might be expected. Up till noon Mr. Wynne E. Baxter, the Coroner for the district, had not received any official intimation of the occurrence, but he will probably do so during the day, and the inquest will most likely be held on Monday morning.

For a Family man living and commuting through the very heart of the Crime wave , who may well have ( as was suspected at the time ) interrupted the Attack , it seems highly logical (to me at least) that he would prefer not to be cast into the very public limelight .. And given the fact he had a Police history to booster his appeal , I cannot see why they would refuse him and his family a slight advantage against any kind of gang retribution .

It really could be as simple as that Mr B .. the fear of retribution is equally as powerful an emotion as retribution itself .. The Krays made a good living out of that ole chestnut years later .

cheers

moonbegger.

[Lechmere]

Just on correction - there is no reason to believe that Cross was ever his legal name and no evidence o suggest he ever called himself Cross outside of this event.
I will also point out that there are no other known occurrences in this case where a witness was allowed to call himself something different.
Further why no mention of the allowance of his secret identity in the internal police records? And if they did allow a fake name then surely they would have chosen one with no connection whatsoever.
None of it makes any sense.

[sleekviper]

Did he register "Lechmere" on the deed poll?

[Paddy]

Interesting

What I find Interesting is that when his mum Maria was in Herefordshire with him and Emily in 1851 stated as married, her husband was living with another woman called Ann in Northamptonshire. In 1861 he was in Daventry still with Ann and two children (a Cordwainer) and Maria was married to Thomas Cross?? Did they divorce?

There were some pretty well heeled Lechmeres in Hereford including a JP and a baronet also a policeman.

Pat

[Paddy]

Name of Cross

Charles was called Lechmere in 1851 census in Hereford, Cross in the 1861 census but Lechmere on his wedding certificate and every following census......Pat

[moonbegger]

Has anyone searched through this ?

The London Carmen's Trade Union was established in 1888, renamed the National Union of Vehicle Workers in 1914 and amalgamated with other unions to form the Transport and General Workers Union in 1922.

[MrBarnett]

An interesting image from Pickford's website (apologies if it's already on here somewhere). How would you describe the hat the driver is wearing?

http://pickfordsremovals.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/pickfords-horse-and-cart-in-front-of-terra-nova.jpg

[Cogidubnus]

Hi MrB

Looks a bit like a kepi to me...though perhaps not quite as tall as they often are

Cheers

Dave

[Lechmere]

Paddy
Charles Lechmere's grandfather's brother inherited the family estates.
His father John absconded soon after he was born and started a new family in Northamptonshire but didn't remarry.
His mother remarried twice and claimed to be a widow the first time.
It is clear that he retained contact with his father's family after he went to Northamptonshire. Some of them became independently wealthy.
Out of 120 plus entries that we have for his life and the recording of his surname in a wide variety of official records, he always opted for Lechmere.
He was called Cross by his stepfather Thomas Cross in the 1861 census.
He also called himself Cross when involved in the investigation into the Nichols murder.

[Paddy]

Thanks Lechmere, perhaps as a witness he was allowed anonimity?

Pat...............................

[Lechmere]

On what grounds? They were minor country landed gentry and comfortably off merchants - not movers and shakers. And why no reference to this in the internal reports?

[Paddy]

Hi Lechmere, yes you are right.
It is odd he was not suspected...I have looked through the police files and there is loads missing. They were looking to find Leather Apron Pizer for her murder but could not find him straight away. There is hardly any mention of Lechmere. They did give his name (as Cross) and his address and a timeline of sorts but nothing more.
Because of the lack of records, I cant help feeling that they didn't care what name he called himself so long as they could find him at that address.

Pat............................................... ..........

[sleekviper]

Is he entered in the deed poll as Lechmere?