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  • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

    This is a false equivalency, Christer.

    Dr. Whatsit is not asking Abberline, Swanson, and the Coroner to solve 11 seemingly motiveless street murders. He's merely asking them to notice and unravel a simple discrepancy between a police constable and two citizens--all of whom were available to interview and question.

    One might as well argue that since Albert Einstein didn't come up with the Big Band Theory, he can't be trusted to do simple physics equations.
    What Doctored Whatsit argued was that the men in charge of the case were totally unlikely to miss out on how Lechmere would be a prime suspect if he had lied to Mizen. There is therefore nothing remotely "false" in pointing out that the police - in whom Doctored Whatsit puts so much retrospective faith - ultimately failed to solve the murders.Similarly, there is nothing "false" about pointing out that the police have a looooong history of missing out on very simple matters through the history of crime, and of getting things incredibly and inexplicably wrong at times.

    It goes to show that the suggestion Doctored Whatsit makes - that the matter was looked into and found to be in favor of Lechmeres veracity - is a very premature suggestion, based on expectations on the police force that they have before and since shown themselves unable to fill.

    As a matter of fact, if we were to treat the exact issue only as viable for explaining these things, we would never get an explanation, since the matter remains unresolved. Therefore, all we can do is to ask ourselves "Could the police have missed out on this?", and the answer is always going to be yes, regardless of the degree of credibility various people will ascribe to the matter - and we WILL ascribe various degrees of credibility to it. In the end, I have no problems to say that they SHOULD have looked into it, and likewise that I believe that today, most similar matters ARE looked into. But NOT all of them, EVEN today!
    And back then? It is a very different ballgame, I can say that much.
    Last edited by Fisherman; 02-15-2024, 03:37 PM.

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    • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

      Unfortunate typo. I don't think Albert Einstein was also Duke Ellington!
      Then again you are not a policeman, so you WOULD suss that out.

      "Big Band Theory". Like it!
      Last edited by Fisherman; 02-15-2024, 03:36 PM.

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      • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

        interesting fish. i had never heard of it. reminds me of other killers, who were known by police but never looked at thoroughly or mistakenly taken off the list.. nilsen, ridgeway etc. main zodiac suspect Allen (who i personally beleive was probably the zodiac) was discovered to have been previously questioned and forgotten, when he later became the main suspect. very well could have happened to lech.

        i find your analogy relevant and i disagree with posters who apply the police must have been idiots arguments to miss it. it happens.. like anyone else the police are human, and make mistakes, and detective work is difficult. its hard to solve many if not most cases.
        Exactly. What irks me most about that criticism is that today, so many people are som very sure about how the police could not have missed out on Lechmere - who these posters THEMSELVES missed out on totally until Michael Connor and Derek Osborne came along.

        What ever happened to humility?

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        • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

          Exactly. What irks me most about that criticism is that today, so many people are som very sure about how the police could not have missed out on Lechmere - who these posters THEMSELVES missed out on totally until Michael Connor and Derek Osborne came along.

          What ever happened to humility?
          Lechmere was a witness and the crusade to fit Lechmere up for the Ripper crimes is both pointless and tiresome. Have some respect for the dead.

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          • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post

            Lechmere was a witness and the crusade to fit Lechmere up for the Ripper crimes is both pointless and tiresome. Have some respect for the dead.
            You seem not as keen on people having respect for the other 300 dead ”suspects”, John? Oh, and just a brief reminder: being a witness does not preclude being a killer. Criminal history has abundant examples of criminals who masquerded as witnesses. And another brief reminder: If you want to say that Lechmere is being ”fit up” for the Ripper crimes, you need to either prove your claim or rephrase yourself. That is how a respectful and sound debate is conducted. And those who find a topic ”pointless and tiresome” should perhaps not debate it at all.
            Last edited by Fisherman; 02-15-2024, 07:09 PM.

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            • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

              You seem not as keen on people having respect for the other 300 dead ”suspects”, John? Oh, and just a brief reminder: being a witness does not preclude being a killer. Criminal history has abundant examples of criminals who masquerded as witnesses. And another brief reminder: If you want to say that Lechmere is being ”fit up” for the Ripper crimes, you need to either prove your claim or rephrase yourself. That is how a respectful and sound debate is conducted. And those who find a topic ”pointless and tiresome” should perhaps not debate it at all.
              There is no evidence Lechmere was the Ripper whatsoever. As for the other suspects anyone pointing a finger at any suspect who isn't a proven murderer as confidently as the Lechmere is the Ripper brigade might want to reconsider there stance.
              Last edited by John Wheat; 02-15-2024, 09:16 PM.

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              • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                No, it is not impossible that they were all total idiots, that is true. Moreover, it is evident that one hundred years of Ripperology ALSO seems to have produced people who were all total idiots - me included - because Lechmere was overlooked for all of that time. By ALL of us!

                It is easy enough to say today that "They MUST have checked that out!", but keep in mind that we were ALL at a total loss to see the potential explosive power of the Lechmere bid for all of that time. Loosing track of that today, and making claims that an idiot would see his potential culpability would be the ultimate arrogance. We missed out, all of us, and we need to accept that.

                A little more "idle chat" for you: When John Christie was interviewed in relation to the many murders that had occurred in his vicinity, the police accepted his innocence - after all, he WAS an ex copper, albeit a war time extra copper - and so they said "Thank you very much, Mr Christie!" and went out his front door and passed down his garden path. That garden path was lined with a fence, held up by wooden poles - and a female femur bone, that the police failed to note.

                Some little time after, the police got Christies neighbor Timothy Evans hung for the murders Christie had committed.

                So what do we call these policemen, Doctored Whatsit? Knowledgeable and vigilant professionals? Hard-core detectives, who knew all there was to know about the case?

                Or total idiots?

                Let me know what you decide.
                Hi Christer,

                When are you going to stop telling me things like the police didn't identify JtR, about the murder of a politician, and now about John Christie, when the only subject that I have been discussing is that you wrote, "Logic suggests that Mizen was always on the money - and Lechmere was lying". I have said that as the police and the Coroner, with evidence that we don't have, concluded that Paul and Lechmere found Mizen and told him what they had seen. Or to put it in simple English, their version of events amounts to - logic suggests that Mizen was mistaken - and Lechmere did not lie".

                I have never suggested that the police were infallible, only that they investigated and reached the opposite conclusion to yours. We don't have all of the evidence that they possessed, but we can try to put some of it together from what we know. For Lechmere to have lied to Mizen, he had to be on his own without Paul. So what was said by these two? Lechmere said that he and Paul walked on, found Mizen, and told him about Nichols. He said that he thought that she was either drunk or dead, whilst Paul said he thought she was dead. Paul said that they walked on together, found Mizen, and told him what they had seen. Paul had previously been reported as advising a journalist that he told Mizen that Nichols was dead - which agrees with what Lechmere said. Mizen apparently said at the inquest that Lechmere told him he was wanted in Baker's Row, the bit about another policeman being added later, and when Lechmere spoke to him he was accompanied by another man. So the available evidence from all three of them seems to confirm that Lechmere and Paul were together when they found Mizen.

                That is my evidence for doubting your statement, please don't give me any more stories, or try to convince people that I have claimed that the police were infallible. Please just provide the evidence which destroys the facts that we all know, and which demonstrate your claim that "logic suggests that Mizen was always on the money - and Lechmere lied".

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                • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post

                  There is no evidence Lechmere was the Ripper whatsoever. As for the other suspects anyone pointing a finger at any suspect who isn't a proven murderer as confidently as the Lechmere is the Ripper brigade might want to reconsider there stance.
                  There is no absolute PROOF that he was the Ripper, but that is the case for every so called suspect. So I would still like for you to explain why you only advice respect for him, and not for the other 300 suspects. Plus, of course, in Lechmeres case, the evidence - and there are tons of it, albeit circumstantial - convinced KC James Scobie that there is a court case to be had against the carman, that suggests guilt. And as we both know quite well, that is the case for one suspect and one suspect only. So, you see, the confidence I have in pointing him out has a legal backing up. As for recionsidering things, it is good to see that you no longer think the Lechmere discussion pointless and tiresome, since you eagerly take part of it. Good to see, John!

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                  • Originally posted by Doctored Whatsit View Post

                    Hi Christer,

                    When are you going to stop telling me things like the police didn't identify JtR, about the murder of a politician, and now about John Christie, when the only subject that I have been discussing is that you wrote, "Logic suggests that Mizen was always on the money - and Lechmere was lying". I have said that as the police and the Coroner, with evidence that we don't have, concluded that Paul and Lechmere found Mizen and told him what they had seen. Or to put it in simple English, their version of events amounts to - logic suggests that Mizen was mistaken - and Lechmere did not lie".

                    Well, as long as you use non existant evidence to try and point out how the police must have delved deep into the matter about the disagreement between Lechmere and Mizen, I am going to produce examples of how the police very often FAIL to do what they would have needed to do to solve various cases.
                    I hope that answers your question.

                    I have never suggested that the police were infallible, only that they investigated and reached the opposite conclusion to yours. We don't have all of the evidence that they possessed, but we can try to put some of it together from what we know.

                    Yes, we can. But, believe it or not, we do not put things together the same way. If we did, we would not be having this discussion.

                    For Lechmere to have lied to Mizen, he had to be on his own without Paul.

                    No, I īm afraid that is not an absolute. Although I do not favor the suggestion, it may be that the carmen agreed to tell whichever policeman they came across that porkies story about another PC. It may be that Lechmere suggested this and told Paul that it would get them both to work in time.
                    So no, getting Paul out of the picture is no absolute. But I DO believe that he WAS out of earshot as Lechmere lied to Mizen, and I base that on a number of matters, matters I have already quoted.

                    So what was said by these two? Lechmere said that he and Paul walked on, found Mizen, and told him about Nichols. He said that he thought that she was either drunk or dead, whilst Paul said he thought she was dead.

                    Yes. And one has to ask oneself why Paul would have said that he thought that a warm and breathing woman was dead. As a general rule, warm and breathing women are alive. So there is a red flag to consider here.

                    Paul said that they walked on together, found Mizen, and told him what they had seen.

                    Yes: ”We told him what we had seen”. Again, if they agreed to tell a PC what they had seen, and if Lechmere was the one who - alone - walked up to Mizen and spoke to him (note the quotation from Paul in the Morning Advertiser: ”I sent the other man for a policeman”), and if Paul was then asked by a juror or the coroner ”Did you tell the policeman what you had seen?” - what was he to answer? Yes? Or no? I think there can only be one answer to that question. If you disagree, please tell me how that would work.

                    Paul had previously been reported as advising a journalist that he told Mizen that Nichols was dead - which agrees with what Lechmere said.

                    But NOT with what Paul knew about the woman! We cannot award as much credence to a newspaper article as we award to the sworn inquest testimony, if the two sources are not in sync. Plus, and this is an important plus, Paul DOES tell the inquest that he DID think that the woman was dead - up until he felt her chest moving and realized that she was still warm. It seems to me that the reporter is only giving us the first segment of that story. Whether that was on account of the reporter cutting away parts of the story or on account of Paul only providing half of the story himself, we cant tell. But we CAN tell that Paul at the inquest spoke about the moving chest and the warmth of the body, and so we DO know that he did NOT think that Nichols was dead. Again, if you disagree, please tell me how that would work.

                    Mizen apparently said at the inquest that Lechmere told him he was wanted in Baker's Row, the bit about another policeman being added later, and when Lechmere spoke to him he was accompanied by another man. So the available evidence from all three of them seems to confirm that Lechmere and Paul were together when they found Mizen.

                    If you cut half of the evidence away, then yes. But if you add that Mizen said that ONE man spoke to him and had to be reminded of Pauls presence by the coroner, if you look at how the Morning Advertiser quoted Paul as saying that he sent the other man for a policeman and if you remember the passage in the Echo that describes Paul as ”the other man, who went down Hanbury Street”, we get a VERY different picture, and we realize that Mizens answering ”yes” to the coroners sentence ”there was another man in company with Cross as you spoke to him” must not mean that the two were in close enough company to be able to hear what the other one said. But you forgot these things, Doctored Whatsit, did you not?

                    That is my evidence for doubting your statement, please don't give me any more stories, or try to convince people that I have claimed that the police were infallible. Please just provide the evidence which destroys the facts that we all know, and which demonstrate your claim that "logic suggests that Mizen was always on the money - and Lechmere lied".
                    And that was my evidence for why you should not doubt my statement. As I say, two different pictures can be construed from the material (and I am not the one to conceal that fact), and so we need to accept that. As should be very obvious to anybody who has read our exchange, I have never said that you believe the police to be infallible. What I have said is that it must be recognized that they are not infallible, and that has been led on by your suggestion that the police would have checked out and discarded any suggestion that the carman could have been lying. To make that suggestion is not the same as saying that the police were infallible, but it nevertheless requires that we take a look at police work in general, so that we may conclude if you must be correct about your assumption or not. And to that end, the examples I have given are extremely useful, not least since they were all examples from many decades after the Ripper scare - and I do not hesitate to say that mistakes on behalf of the poilice will be more likely with every added decade of time. They knew much less, they were much more prejudiced and they will have been more likely to make mistakes. Again, if you disagree with that, let me know how that works, Doctored Whatsit. By now, you should also be able to see why I am saying that logic suggests that Mizen was on the money and Lechmere a liar. That does not mean that you must agree with it. But it DOES mean that you need to weigh all of the evidence up without forgetting vital parts of it, before you try to conclude things. I believe you have failed rather badly in that rrespect so far.

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                    • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                      There is no absolute PROOF that he was the Ripper, but that is the case for every so called suspect. So I would still like for you to explain why you only advice respect for him, and not for the other 300 suspects. Plus, of course, in Lechmeres case, the evidence - and there are tons of it, albeit circumstantial - convinced KC James Scobie that there is a court case to be had against the carman, that suggests guilt. And as we both know quite well, that is the case for one suspect and one suspect only. So, you see, the confidence I have in pointing him out has a legal backing up. As for recionsidering things, it is good to see that you no longer think the Lechmere discussion pointless and tiresome, since you eagerly take part of it. Good to see, John!
                      There is no circumstantial evidence Lechmere was the Ripper.

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                      • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post

                        There is no circumstantial evidence Lechmere was the Ripper.
                        Oh, there is. Otherwise, a KC would not say that there is a court case against him. They do not pluck such things out of thin air, the way you pluck your denial out of it. But I sense this “debate” with you is going down the standard drain where all exchanges with you tend to end up, so I will waste no more time on you.
                        Last edited by Fisherman; 02-16-2024, 09:27 AM.

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                        • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                          Oh, there is. Otherwise, a KC would not say that there is a court case against him. They do not pluck such things out of thin air, the way you pluck your denial out of it. But I sense this “debate” with you is going down the standard drain that all exchanges with you tend to end up, so I will waste no more time on you.
                          No there isn't. Scobie was misled otherwise he wouldn't have said there was a court case against Lechmere.

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                          • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post

                            No there isn't. Scobie was misled otherwise he wouldn't have said there was a court case against Lechmere.
                            As I said, there is no reason to discuss with domeone who is unwilling to accept the facts. Goodbye to you.

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                            • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                              As I said, there is no reason to discuss with domeone who is unwilling to accept the facts. Goodbye to you.
                              Right back at you.

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                              • Im curious about who might be carrying lamps or lanterns around in the middle of the night, other than policemen. Just a side question really.
                                Michael Richards

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