All roads lead to Lechmere.

[The Baron]

If Lechmere had we'd be surrounded people "proving" Robert Paul was the murderer.

Exactly, Paul should run away too.



The Baron

[Fiver]

Lechmere should have run away and didn't stop a second to look what was laying there, at least that will convince Lechmerians of his innocence.

Poor Lechmere, he didn't thought, not in his most wildest dreams, that after some 130 years, there will come a group of people accusing him of being the ripper.

And why is that?! Because he found a woman laying on the ground, gave attention to her to another passer, went with him searching and informing a policeman! All this point to his guilt according to Lechmerians.

Not only that, but because he did that, he is now the prime suspect for all the torso murders too.


Its beyond imagination!


He should have run away.




Tge Baron

If Lechmere had we'd be surrounded people "proving" Robert Paul was the murderer.

[The Baron]

Lechmere should have run away and didn't stop a second to look what was laying there, at least that will convince Lechmerians of his innocence.

Poor Lechmere, he didn't thought, not in his most wildest dreams, that after some 130 years, there will come a group of people accusing him of being the ripper.

And why is that?! Because he found a woman laying on the ground, gave attention to her to another passer, went with him searching and informing a policeman! All this point to his guilt according to Lechmerians.

Not only that, but because he did that, he is now the prime suspect for all the torso murders too.


Its beyond imagination!


He should have run away.




Tge Baron

[etenguy]

they all did of course. hehe.

but i know what youre getting at. off the top of my head dahmer did something similar by rusing the police after he had tortured one of his victims whom he then went on to shortly kill.

Hi Abby - I'm not sure one way or the other whether there is another situation like Lechmere's, but it would be interesting to find out how behaviours compared if there was. Fisherman speculates that Lechmere killed Nichols and chose to stay to front it out rather than flee when he heard Paul's footsteps approaching. It is a key decision if Lechmere is the killer. It seems counter intuitive to me that a killer would behave that way, but I am not a killer and consider myself mentally stable. Even if Lechmere was not entirely mentally sound, it seems much more likely to me that, if Lechmere was the killer, he would have fled under cover of darkness. His being there and seeking help from Paul fits, in my view, the scenario he describes of discovering the body. Any comparators might help, though of course forensics has developed so much since then the risk calculation would be very different now.

[The Baron]

Lechmerians first have to prove that Mrs Nichols was dead when Cross and Paul found her.


-Both of them didn't notice any blood.
-Paul detected what might have been a faint breath.

That means:

-It is not a proven fact that she was cut when Lechmere was there till he left her.

-Lechmere testified: "The other man, placing his hand on her heart, said "I think she is breathing"

Is a guilty Lechmere going to incriminate himself intentionally and tell the police and the jury that Paul thought she was still breathing ?!

That sentence alone set Lechmere free.


Lechmere is innocent, because we don't have any proof that Mrs Nichols was cut when he left her.



The Baron

[Abby Normal]

A number of people on this site have extensive knowledge of true crime beyond the Whitechapel murders. I just wondered, is anyone aware of any serial killer who was the person that discovered one of his/her victims? I am not aware of any, but my knowledge is quite limited.

they all did of course. hehe.

but i know what youre getting at. off the top of my head dahmer did something similar by rusing the police after he had tortured one of his victims whom he then went on to shortly kill.

[Abby Normal]

Did you even read what I wrote?

In the OP you claimed "Lechmere is found standing near Polly Nichols freshly killed body down a dark street at 03.45 in the morning - she has clearly just been killed."

Robert Paul disagrees strongly with your claim. He thought thought Nichols she was alive.

"He felt her hands and face, and they were cold. The clothes were disarranged, and he helped to pull them down. Before he did so he detected a slight movement as of breathing, but very faint." - Robert Paul Inquest testimony

Polly Nichols probably had just been killed - but that was not clear to Robeert Paul. Claiming that "she has clearly just been killed." is ignoring the evidence.

this is nonsense semantic mongering of the worse sort. of course if theres a slight detection of breath means shes just been very recently been attacked and yes killed. good grief.

[etenguy]

A number of people on this site have extensive knowledge of true crime beyond the Whitechapel murders. I just wondered, is anyone aware of any serial killer who was the person that discovered one of his/her victims? I am not aware of any, but my knowledge is quite limited.

[Fiver]

And he was still living at 20, James Street immediately before he moved to Doveton Street, I believe. That move would have been a significant upheaval for him.

Moving is a pain, but calling it a "significant upheaval" seems overstated. I doubt moving from James Street Doveton Street was much more of an ordeal than his moving from Mary Ann Street to James Street.

[Fiver]

And just getting back to your numerous factual errors about Lechmere and Bucks Row. You claim Lechmere didn't have 6 addresses.

I made no claim about how many addresses Lechmere had. Did you even read what I wrote?

In Post #14 you claimed "As a child he lived at 6 different addresses".

Also in Post #14 you claimed "He lived in Whitechapel all his life. 5 different addresses."

In Post #25 I pointed out those two claims of yours contradict each other. "As a child he lived at 6 different addresses." and "He lived in Whitechapel all his life. 5 different addresses" cannot both be true.

It turns out both of your claims are false.

Your claim that "He lived in Whitechapel all his life" is false. The 1851 Census shows Charles Lechmere was living in Herefordshire.

Unlucky you we have the census. Here are his addresses.

1858 Holloway Street

1859 Sion Square

1861 Thomas Street

1871 Mary Ann Street

1881 James Street

June 1888 Moved to Doveton Street

1890 22 Doveton Street

Lucky me - the historical records that you list prove that you are wrong.

You claimed "As a child he lived at 6 different addresses". Charles Lechmere was not a child in 1881.

I could go through your post point by point but there's no value in that. If you have no knowledge about the basic facts then it serves no purpose. Lechmere is Jack the Ripper, it's been handed to Ripperology on a plate, and you still can't see it. You can lead a horse to water.

Your own sources have proved you wrong, so it's rather early for you to declare victory.

[Fiver]

Exactly my point. Thank you. When Lechmere was there she had just been attacked and might have breathing her last breath. This places Lechmere there right at the time of death. Which of course makes him the murderer.

Did you even read what I wrote?

In the OP you claimed "Lechmere is found standing near Polly Nichols freshly killed body down a dark street at 03.45 in the morning - she has clearly just been killed."

Robert Paul disagrees strongly with your claim. He thought thought Nichols she was alive.

"He felt her hands and face, and they were cold. The clothes were disarranged, and he helped to pull them down. Before he did so he detected a slight movement as of breathing, but very faint." - Robert Paul Inquest testimony

Polly Nichols probably had just been killed - but that was not clear to Robeert Paul. Claiming that "she has clearly just been killed." is ignoring the evidence.

[MrBarnett]

Exactly my point. Thank you. When Lechmere was there she had just been attacked and might have breathing her last breath. This places Lechmere there right at the time of death. Which of course makes him the murderer.

And just getting back to your numerous factual errors about Lechmere and Bucks Row. You claim Lechmere didn’t have 6 addresses. Unlucky you we have the census. Here are his addresses.

1858 Holloway Street

1859 Sion Square

1861 Thomas Street

1871 Mary Ann Street

1881 James Street

June 1888 Moved to Doveton Street

1890 22 Doveton Street


I could go through your post point by point but there’s no value in that. If you have no knowledge about the basic facts then it serves no purpose.
Lechmere is Jack the Ripper, it’s been handed to Ripperology on a plate, and you still can’t see it. You can lead a horse to water…

And he was still living at 20, James Street immediately before he moved to Doveton Street, I believe. That move would have been a significant upheaval for him.

[SuperShodan]

Robert Paul thought she was alive.

"He felt her hands and face, and they were cold. The clothes were disarranged, and he helped to pull them down. Before he did so he detected a slight movement as of breathing, but very faint." - Robert Paul Inquest testimony

Exactly my point. Thank you. When Lechmere was there she had just been attacked and might have breathing her last breath. This places Lechmere there right at the time of death. Which of course makes him the murderer.

And just getting back to your numerous factual errors about Lechmere and Bucks Row. You claim Lechmere didn’t have 6 addresses. Unlucky you we have the census. Here are his addresses.

1858 Holloway Street

1859 Sion Square

1861 Thomas Street

1871 Mary Ann Street

1881 James Street

June 1888 Moved to Doveton Street

1890 22 Doveton Street


I could go through your post point by point but there’s no value in that. If you have no knowledge about the basic facts then it serves no purpose.
Lechmere is Jack the Ripper, it’s been handed to Ripperology on a plate, and you still can’t see it. You can lead a horse to water…

[Fiver]

Lechmere is found standing near Polly Nichols freshly killed body down a dark street at 03.45 in the morning - she has clearly just been killed.

Robert Paul thought she was alive.

"He felt her hands and face, and they were cold. The clothes were disarranged, and he helped to pull them down. Before he did so he detected a slight movement as of breathing, but very faint." - Robert Paul Inquest testimony

[Fiver]

I could go through your whole post but there are so many mistakes I don’t know where to start.
So I'll pick 2 from the bottom.

"Post offense behavior would include returning to an area where he could wash his hands of blood and remove his clothing." - this does not match Charles Lechmere.

This is so utterly wrong. A monkey with a crayon could do better. Lechmere went to Pickford's after the attacks. They had a large area for workmen to wash down their equipment and themselves.

"Post offense behavior would include returning to an area where he could wash his hands of blood and remove his clothing."

Pickford's had an area for washing up after work. It did not have the privacy needed for washing off blood and changing clothes undetected. It would not have a spare change of clothes for Lechmere. Or a place to secretly dispose of bloodstained and besodden clothing. Showing up for work besplattered in blood would have raised the eyebrows of every coworker that saw Lechmere.

"would visit the gravesites of the victims during the early morning hours." - this does not match Charles Lechmere. he would have been at work.

You have absolutely no idea whether he would visit the gravestones or not. You can't possibly say that. It's just silly. How could you even guess what he did in his free time. Unbelievable.

Clearly you did not read what I posted. I did not guess at what Lechmere did in his free times. "The early morning hours" were not free time for Charles Lechmere.

The profile said the killer "would visit the gravesites of the victims during the early morning hours". As I said before, this does not match Charles Lechmere. he would have been at work during the early morning hours.