Chas Lechmere/Cross/Crass/Brass/Glass/etc

[Lechmere]

Its not a dark alley - it's a gated yard!

[moonbegger]

K .. thanks ML for the information .. So that deffo counts out the wool warehouse then , leaving the dark alleyway directly opposite the murder site still plausible , if it wasn't so unlikely .

cheers,

moonbegger

[Mr Lucky]

Thanks for unearthing the background on the report ML , but how do you know it was a fictitious report ?

Hi Moon

There are some later reports that imply as much.

secondly , the gates that myself and Edward referred to , was the two alleyways directly opposite the spot where polly lay . Any information regarding these two possible escape/hide out entrance's would be appreciated . Edward has already confirmed they were gated .. but were they indeed locked and out of bounds ?

There was a watchman working at the wool warehouses behind the first gateway, the second lead to Essex wharf (likely checked by Neil as well though he doesn't actually say this, but it was part of his duties on a night beat)

[moonbegger]

Hello ML

Moon

That clipping you posted was from the Forresters Music Hall assault from Saturday night, it's likely a ficticious report. At the time there was still some confusion about the location of the murder site because of the story the day before about the assault on Brady street

Thanks for unearthing the background on the report ML , but how do you know it was a fictitious report ? secondly , the gates that myself and Edward referred to , was the two alleyways directly opposite the spot where polly lay . Any information regarding these two possible escape/hide out entrance's would be appreciated . Edward has already confirmed they were gated .. but were they indeed locked and out of bounds ?

cheers

moonbegger .

[Mr Lucky]

Moon

That clipping you posted was from the Forresters Music Hall assault from Saturday night, it's likely a ficticious report. At the time there was still some confusion about the location of the murder site because of the story the day before about the assault on Brady street

The gates to Brown's stable yard were either closed or locked, either way it seems Neil checked them -

I went across and found deceased lying outside a gateway, her head towards the east. The gateway was closed. It was about nine or ten feet high, and led to some stables.

The figure was lying alongside a gateway, of which the gate, nine or 10 feet high, was locked.

[moonbegger]

Hello Edward ,

Yes .. but i don't think it's something that i would attach a great deal of importance to either way , although i do find it an intriguing possibility .. and i do accept your original reply that the passage and alleyways in the immediate vicinity of the " established(alleged) murder site" may have been locked ..

We have detailed maps and sketches available that show where the alleys were and which yards were gated.

Ahh , This is the answer to my original question i was looking for .. and if you can tell me these gates were definitely locked , i will gladly accept that it is highly unlikely that the killer may have utilized one of them .

The fact that one of these unlocked yards may well have been utilized just after Pollys murder, in order to aid another crime i find a little suspicious .. that is the point i was making .

cheers

moonbegger .

[Fisherman]

Exactly so, Edward.

Moonbegger, there was not any exact pinpointing of any alternative locality - there was just the suggestion that the murder had taken place in another location than Buckīs Row, whereupon the body was transported there; presumably to hide the true place of death and the implications that would have for the killer.
If you are unfamiliar with this discussion, how it looked back then and what it looks like today, then thatīs fine.

As for what I take at face value or not, I always look for a credible development of events that tallies as closely as possible with the recorded evidence.

But thatīs just me, of course.

The best,
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

Moonbeggar
I guess the purpose of you reproducing that clipping is to suggest there was a near by location that a potential non lechmerian murderer could tarry until Paul and lechmere departed the scene, so the fiend could return to administer the final coup and cut the throat.
But the wording of the clipping is sufficiently vague for the location to be any of the named byways that I have already mentioned.
We have detailed maps and sketches available that show where the alleys were and which yards were gated.

[moonbegger]

The location where Nichols was FOUND was known, yes - but where she was murdered was a topic of debate then, and is still so in some camps.

Oh i see Fish ! So in order to pin point a certain location in their readers mind .. instead of using a location that every body knows and is familiar with .. the press opt with a location that nobody knows .. it all makes perfect sense now

They had reached a point near to the scene of the murder of the woman Nicholls, when the man violently seized her by the throat and dragged her down a court. He was immediately joined by a gang of women and bullies,

I may also add , i am glad to see that you (all of a sudden) don't mind reading an alternative perspective into a story other than that , which is written down in print .. I was under the impression that the you took everything at face value ( how it reads , opposed to how it should read ) The facts that were there in black and white from 1888 .. now that could be construed by some , as a tad selective reasoning . but not me Fish , i totally understand where your coming from . and wish you continued success in your apprenticeship in reading between the lines .

thank ya very much

moonbegger .

[caz]

Caz
Please let me withdraw the accusation that you had made a ludicrous suggestion. I am now aware that this is not allowed, but I am for some reason unable to get back into my offending post to edit it.

Hi Lechy,

I've only just returned to this thread and seen your message.

I'm pretty sure you are allowed to find a suggestion ludicrous (preferably including your reasons), so long as you don't single out one poster for making nothing but ludicrous suggestions, or accuse the poster him/herself of being ludicrous.

By the way, I am never personally offended by anyone's comments about me or my posts, but naturally they still need to abide by the rules to avoid Admin coming down on them.

Hope to see you in April.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fisherman]

Exactly ! so where is the debate ? Folk from all over the East End Made their way to Bucks row to visit the Murder site , which was my original point . the location was known and referred to as such .

moonbegger

The location where Nichols was FOUND was known, yes - but where she was murdered was a topic of debate then, and is still so in some camps. The original police conception was that she had been killed elsewhere and transported to Buckīs Row, and it wasnīt until some way into the investigation that they started to accept that she was slain where she was found. Popular stories were told about how Nichols had been heard fleeing, chased by the killer. These stories would not have seized just because the police had a change of heart.

Have a look at Elvis Presley - he ainīt dead just because some bigwigs say so, see...?

Thatīs how things work, Moonbegger - the public wisdom very seldom aligns with that of the police. So your clipping could have been tree days, three weeks, three months, three years or three decades after the strike - and still you would be able to find people who thought they knew better. And people who were prepared to cook anything up, as long as they could sell it to the papers. And boy, could they ...!!

The best,
Fisherman

[moonbegger]

That she was killed elsewhere? That originated with the comparative lack of blood on the ground under her (it had been soaked up in her clothes).

Exactly ! so where is the debate ? Folk from all over the East End Made their way to Bucks row to visit the Murder site , which was my original point . the location was known and referred to as such .

moonbegger

[Fisherman]

[QUOTE=moonbegger;256097]

Really ? i thought that idea was put to bed within days of the murder ..

Not so, Iīm afraid. The idea is still discussed out on these thread every now and then. And back in 1888, I think many people would be happy to present any form of juicy story to the papers.

Is it a proper proposal or much like the one you offer up for Crossmere ( just joking Fish )

Youīll find yourself having words with Simon Wood on this score, I believe. You will have to decide for yourself which one of us is more of a joke ...!

Was it the criss cross blood on the ground Fish ? is that the major component in the theory ?

What blood? And what theory ...? That she was killed elsewhere? That originated with the comparative lack of blood on the ground under her (it had been soaked up in her clothes).

All the best,
Fisherman

[moonbegger]

Fish,

The discussion whether she was killed in Winthrop Street instead of in Buckīs Row is STILL ongoing, Moonbegger!

Really ? i thought that idea was put to bed within days of the murder ..

Is it a proper proposal or much like the one you offer up for Crossmere ( just joking Fish )

Was it the criss cross blood on the ground Fish ? is that the major component in the theory ?

cheers

moonbegger .

[Fisherman]

G'day Fish ,

This clipping was a good few days after the murder , at which point everyone in the East End knew exactly where Polly was murdered ? or at least the stable yard where she was found , and believed to be murdered .

The discussion whether she was killed in Winthrop Street instead of in Buckīs Row is STILL ongoing, Moonbegger!

The best,
Fisherman