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Why is the possibility of Lechmere interrupting the ripper so often discarded?

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  • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
    It seems to me to be a conflict to suggest (not by you Abby) that Paul's own footsteps may have prevented him from hearing those of Lechmere only 40 metres in front of him, but they wouldn't have covered the sound of a throat cutting, dress rearrangement and three steps away from the body.
    Hi George,

    Conversely, it also seems to be a conflict to suggest that Paul would be so alert as a result of the dangerous reputation of the street that he would have heard Lechmere’s footsteps ahead of him, but wouldn’t necessarily have been as alert to the sudden footsteps made by Lechmere moving away from the body. If he's supposed to have been on high alert in one situation, he should be supposed to be exactly as alert in the other. Which was my original point (but it may very well have got drowned out by the sound of someone's footsteps ).

    Of course, we don’t know where Paul was when a guilty Lechmere first heard him, but if he was able to see Paul only a few seconds after having taken his position in the middle of the street, then we could say that the two men were some 40 metres apart, just as in that situation where an innocent Lechmere was walking only 40 metres in front of Paul.

    Cheers,
    Frank
    "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
    Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

    Comment


    • hi sorry for my interlude to your discussions,
      first book i read on JTR. i thought of this scenario the most. made me wonder about Charles , also perhaps the killer was still there. stepped into a door way and waited for them to leave. a lot property doors were left unlocked ,perhaps not at night but during the day or when someone has already left for work .i have fallen through many as and when i have worked in London. so Paul & Charles leave then JTR comes back out and cuts her throat. until bobby turns up with lamp. i thought many scenarios of JTR not leaving just yet. this sound plausible?
      or this been discussed.!

      Comment


      • Not to my knowledge, Milch. But it certainly seems possible.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
          Hi George,

          Conversely, it also seems to be a conflict to suggest that Paul would be so alert as a result of the dangerous reputation of the street that he would have heard Lechmere’s footsteps ahead of him, but wouldn’t necessarily have been as alert to the sudden footsteps made by Lechmere moving away from the body. If he's supposed to have been on high alert in one situation, he should be supposed to be exactly as alert in the other. Which was my original point (but it may very well have got drowned out by the sound of someone's footsteps ).

          Of course, we don’t know where Paul was when a guilty Lechmere first heard him, but if he was able to see Paul only a few seconds after having taken his position in the middle of the street, then we could say that the two men were some 40 metres apart, just as in that situation where an innocent Lechmere was walking only 40 metres in front of Paul.

          Cheers,
          Frank
          Hi Frank,

          I think that Paul's press statement indicated that he would have been adopting a heightened state of awareness in the Row. Had they been marching in unison, like a military drill, he may not have noticed Lechmere, but otherwise it is difficult for me to believe that Paul would not have been aware of someone walking in front of him, and that someone stopping in the street.

          As you are aware, I did a re-enactment of the scenario, and no shapes were visible at 40 metres, and it would not have been possible to know that the shape on the ground was that of a woman from a distance of more than 3 metres. If Lechmere became aware of Paul at a distance of more than 40 metres he could have cut Polly's throat, re-arranged her clothing and quietly taken three step into the middle of the road with Paul being none the wiser. However, if the lighting conditions in Bucks Row were better than just ambient starlight, and Paul's night vision was superior to mine, then my experiment may be less valid.

          Best regards, George
          They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
          Out of a misty dream
          Our path emerges for a while, then closes
          Within a dream.
          Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

          ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Doctored Whatsit View Post

            The train was the 3. 07 am from New Cross. I don't believe that there was any unloading etc, and all we can say is that the calculation of the time was done within a couple of days of the incident.
            Hi Doc,

            I think that the time of 3:30 was an observed time rather than one calculated from a timetable.

            Cheers, George
            They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
            Out of a misty dream
            Our path emerges for a while, then closes
            Within a dream.
            Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

            ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

            Comment


            • Originally posted by milchmanuk View Post
              hi sorry for my interlude to your discussions,
              first book i read on JTR. i thought of this scenario the most. made me wonder about Charles , also perhaps the killer was still there. stepped into a door way and waited for them to leave. a lot property doors were left unlocked ,perhaps not at night but during the day or when someone has already left for work .i have fallen through many as and when i have worked in London. so Paul & Charles leave then JTR comes back out and cuts her throat. until bobby turns up with lamp. i thought many scenarios of JTR not leaving just yet. this sound plausible?
              or this been discussed.!
              Hi Milch,

              An interesting suggestion, and entirely plausible. I haven't seen discussion on that topic.

              Cheers, George
              They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
              Out of a misty dream
              Our path emerges for a while, then closes
              Within a dream.
              Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

              ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

              Comment


              • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
                I think that Paul's press statement indicated that he would have been adopting a heightened state of awareness in the Row.
                Hi George,

                Paul may very well have had a heightened state of awareness all the way down the row, but for me that’s certainly not a given. It seems that going down Buck’s Row was routine for him – after all, he still passed through it on an almost daily basis despite the dangerous reputation he knew it had - and he may only have become as alert as the press statement suggests after actually seeing this man standing in the middle of the street.


                Had they been marching in unison, like a military drill, he may not have noticed Lechmere, but otherwise it is difficult for me to believe that Paul would not have been aware of someone walking in front of him, and that someone stopping in the street.
                I can understand your view, I suppose it’s just as difficult for me to swallow that a guilty Lechmere, who would have had every reason to listen for sounds, wouldn’t have heard Paul enter Buck’s Row from Brady Street, and even more difficult that he wouldn’t have heard him until Paul had covered some significant distance in Buck’s Row.

                As you are aware, I did a re-enactment of the scenario, and no shapes were visible at 40 metres, and it would not have been possible to know that the shape on the ground was that of a woman from a distance of more than 3 metres. If Lechmere became aware of Paul at a distance of more than 40 metres he could have cut Polly's throat, re-arranged her clothing and quietly taken three step into the middle of the road with Paul being none the wiser.
                I know that you did the re-enactment, I just don’t think we can be sure that the conditions were exactly the same as the conditions in Buck’s Row on that morning; plus, there’s also the fact that, according at least the Sunderland Daily Echo of 1 September, the watchman at Brown & Eagle’s wool warehouse stated that at exactly three o’clock, when he spoke to two men who stopped just outside his gate but moved on without any trouble, there was nobody lying in the stable gateway at that time. So, for me it needn’t have been 3 metres (which wouldn’t have been just 3 steps), it could also have been 5 or 7.

                All the best,
                Frank
                "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
                  [FONT=Calibri][FONT=Verdana]Hi George,

                  I can understand your view, I suppose it’s just as difficult for me to swallow that a guilty Lechmere, who would have had every reason to listen for sounds, wouldn’t have heard Paul enter Buck’s Row from Brady Street, and even more difficult that he wouldn’t have heard him until Paul had covered some significant distance in Buck’s Row.

                  I actually agree with your hypothesis. If Lech was guilty then Paul did not hear his footsteps because Lech was stationary. Likewise, Lech would have heard Paul's footsteps as he entered the Row because Lech was stationary. This would have allowed him time to tidy up and prepare to tell his story. Why didn't he just walk away? That's a whole different topic for discussion, as we have seen.

                  I know that you did the re-enactment, I just don’t think we can be sure that the conditions were exactly the same as the conditions in Buck’s Row on that morning; plus, there’s also the fact that, according at least the Sunderland Daily Echo of 1 September, the watchman at Brown & Eagle’s wool warehouse stated that at exactly three o’clock, when he spoke to two men who stopped just outside his gate but moved on without any trouble, there was nobody lying in the stable gateway at that time. So, for me it needn’t have been 3 metres (which wouldn’t have been just 3 steps), it could also have been 5 or 7.

                  I concede that there is no way of duplicating the exact situation and conditions of that night. I'm a little confused in following the point you are making regarding the watchman - you seem to be saying that he didn't see a body that wasn't there?

                  All the best,
                  Frank
                  Hi Frank,

                  When I did my recreation I assumed a dark night, as neither Lech nor Paul noticed the cut throat. I also approached my Polly shape both obliquely and from a right angle to the street alignment. The shape of a body became apparent sooner with the later approach. From my experience I am far from convinced that Lech could have determined that the shape on the ground was that of a woman's body from an oblique distance of 5 or 7 metres, and barely from a right angle distance of 3 metres.

                  Best regards, George
                  They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
                  Out of a misty dream
                  Our path emerges for a while, then closes
                  Within a dream.
                  Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

                  ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                  Comment


                  • Hi George,

                    Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
                    This would have allowed him time to tidy up and prepare to tell his story. Why didn't he just walk away? That's a whole different topic for discussion, as we have seen.
                    Indeed, it would have allowed him time to tidy up & move away from the body. And then wait for around 1 minute for Paul to arrive? Possible? Yes. Probable? Nah, not for me.

                    I'm a little confused in following the point you are making regarding the watchman - you seem to be saying that he didn't see a body that wasn't there?
                    As a result of your re-enactment, you said that you don’t believe Lechmere would have been able to discern anything lying at a distance of 12 metres and that this would only happen at 6 metres. So, my point was that the watchman, standing in or near the gateway of the wool warehouse, was able to see from more than 12 metres that nothing was lying where Nichols was later found, meaning that the lighting conditions were such that he could see the stable gateway and could discern there was nothing lying there.

                    Cheers,
                    Frank
                    "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                    Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
                      Hi George,

                      As a result of your re-enactment, you said that you don’t believe Lechmere would have been able to discern anything lying at a distance of 12 metres and that this would only happen at 6 metres. So, my point was that the watchman, standing in or near the gateway of the wool warehouse, was able to see from more than 12 metres that nothing was lying where Nichols was later found, meaning that the lighting conditions were such that he could see the stable gateway and could discern there was nothing lying there.

                      Cheers,
                      Frank
                      Hi Frank,

                      I think I see where I have created a false impression. I actually did two re-enactments, the first using a wheelbarrow on a cloudy night and the second, acting on a suggestion by Jeff, using a simulated body on a starry night at a different location. The second re-enactment is Post 5395 here: https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...360#post779536

                      In the second re-enactment I was able to discern a dark shape that did, to my surprise, look like a tarpaulin, at 15 metres. I measured the distance from the centre of the wool warehouse gate to where Polly was found as 17 metres, so either the lighting was slightly better on that night, or perhaps the watchmen had better eyes or night vision than I. On the other hand, seeing a shape that is there is a slightly different exercise to not seeing a shape that isn't there, or seeing that there is no shape to see....isn't it?

                      The point I was making was that I was unable to discern the dress shape until between 2 and 4 metres, depending on the angle of approach, so Lech must have been relatively close to the body to have told Paul that is was a woman lying there.

                      Best regards, George
                      They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
                      Out of a misty dream
                      Our path emerges for a while, then closes
                      Within a dream.
                      Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

                      ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by milchmanuk View Post
                        hi sorry for my interlude to your discussions,
                        first book i read on JTR. i thought of this scenario the most. made me wonder about Charles , also perhaps the killer was still there. stepped into a door way and waited for them to leave. a lot property doors were left unlocked ,perhaps not at night but during the day or when someone has already left for work .i have fallen through many as and when i have worked in London. so Paul & Charles leave then JTR comes back out and cuts her throat. until bobby turns up with lamp. i thought many scenarios of JTR not leaving just yet. this sound plausible?
                        or this been discussed.!
                        It's infinitely more likely than Lechmere being Jack the Ripper.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post

                          It's infinitely more likely than Lechmere being Jack the Ripper.
                          Charles saw Paul enter the street at some time and distance ? he had a good chance of seeing JTR. unless JTR slipping into the shadows ( a house door way ) or in some drawings a gateway ? if not Charles is still a big suspect even if he,s being street wise savvy with the police authorities ,

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by milchmanuk View Post

                            Charles saw Paul enter the street at some time and distance ? he had a good chance of seeing JTR. unless JTR slipping into the shadows ( a house door way ) or in some drawings a gateway ? if not Charles is still a big suspect even if he,s being street wise savvy with the police authorities ,
                            JTR had to of seen Charles, reason for him stopping the process of mutilation , crazed man knows when to stop ! and then leave the scene or hide for a while. stopping in the act of he,s satisfaction.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by milchmanuk View Post

                              Charles saw Paul enter the street at some time and distance ? he had a good chance of seeing JTR. unless JTR slipping into the shadows ( a house door way ) or in some drawings a gateway ? if not Charles is still a big suspect even if he,s being street wise savvy with the police authorities ,
                              I disagree. All Lechmere did is find a body. I'm really not a fan of witnesses being turned into suspects in the case of the Jack the Ripper murders.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post

                                I disagree. All Lechmere did is find a body. I'm really not a fan of witnesses being turned into suspects in the case of the Jack the Ripper murders.
                                just various thoughts around this discovery. plenty more of them .
                                i really would like to know what the police net actually was and consists of in man power and tactics they employed to catch JTR.
                                i read this in perhaps Sugdens book recently or here in thread, officials disbelief JTR had got through there NET, i presume a spiders web of bobbys at least.

                                any threads here to send me to !

                                Comment

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