Charles Lechmere, finally vindicated, proof ?

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lechmere

Also you need to factor into your timings the fact that the doctor says he was called on at 4 am and then had to get dressed and walk to Bucks Row which makes 4.10 a very reasonable estimate for the time of his arrival.

I think you missed it but I posted PC Neil`s Inquest testimony where he states that he sent PC Thain running for the doctor and he was back in ten minutes. Oh yes, he sent Thain off before he even initiated contact with Mizen.

I believe it was only one paper printed that Llewellyn was called at 4 o`clock, the rest printing about 4 o`clock.

Oh but perhaps Neil found the body at 3.45 and the doctor was there by 4 and the you can have a time of death of 3.30.

That`s about right, going off inquest testimonies.

But then maybe Charles Lechmere did leave home at 3.20 as was said in some reports and so he can still have done it.

Again, I believe it was only one paper that printed he left home at 3.20.

[Lechmere]

Frank
I am gratified that you are not as dogmatic on the issue of the Ripper’s general awareness while in the act as I first thought.

[Lechmere]

Cog
May I point out that the Doctor's estimation for time of death was WITHIN 30minutes which, and I will spell this out to you as I think I need to in your case, means less than 30 minutes.
Also you need to factor into your timings the fact that the doctor says he was called on at 4 am and then had to get dressed and walk to Bucks Row which makes 4.10 a very reasonable estimate for the time of his arrival.
In your eageness to engage in shrill denunications you seem also to ignore that Paul felt the last signs of life (at about 3.45) and Neil found the blood freshly flowing (at about 3.50).

Oh but perhaps Neil found the body at 3.45 and the doctor was there by 4 and the you can have a time of death of 3.30.
But then maybe Charles Lechmere did leave home at 3.20 as was said in some reports and so he can still have done it.

[Fisherman]

Dave:

"So you think the good doctor and the jolly policemen took a leisurely 10 minutes to walk the estimated 300 yards from the doctor's house to the murder site...and that's ok is it?"

This is getting more and more ridiculous by the moment, Dave. I have told you over and over and over and over again that you are not supposed to peddle any stupidities with my name on them. That stands.

No, I donīt think that the doctor took ten minutes to walk to Buckīs Row. I think that it took around ten minutes from the time Thain knocked on his door until he was there. And them ten minutes encompassed not only the walking, but also Llewellyn being awakened, getting out of bed, going to the front door, being informed by Thain what had happened, getting dressed and getting his bag, AND walking to Buckīs Row.

Interestingly, this is exactly what Thain himself tells the inquest - from the moment he knocked on Llewellyns door, it took ten minutes until the two had gotten to Buckīs Row.

Oh, and itīs not jolly policeMEN, itīs just Thain - ONE policeman.

"the doctor arrived when?"

He said that Thain arrived at 4 o clock, roughly. It took ten minutes to get to Buckīs Row. I therefore make it 4.10 or thereabouts. Itīs not rocket science, exactly.


"What I am contending is that NOWHERE in the evidence is there anything that precludes a murder at say 0331 to 0335"

Itīs interesting how you keep pushing that time estimate of yours further forward. Getting cold feet, are we? How about 3.36-3.37? Or 3.38?

The Lilley train did not pass as she was killed, Dave. She would not have bled from the throat wounds fifteen minutes later. Itīs physically extremely improbable - not to say outright impossible. You can read up on these things on many very relevant net sites. And we should move with probabilitites as long as the alternative is nothing but wishful thinking and a distaste for admitting when you have gotten things very wrong.

The best,
Fisherman

[Cogidubnus]

The coroners summing up, (per The Times, Monday 24th September):-

"Neil found her right arm still warm, and even Dr Llewellyn, who saw the body about a quarter of an hour afterwards, found the body and lower extremities still warm"

So it's confirmed that roughly a quarter of an hour separates Neil touching the body and the doctors arrival on the scene...or did the coroner get it wrong too?

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

So you think the good doctor and the jolly policemen took a leisurely 10 minutes to walk the estimated 300 yards from the doctor's house to the murder site...and that's ok is it?

And allowing the odd five minutes for contingencies, the doctor arrived when?
0406 perhaps? Too late for his "half an hour estimate" to include a murder at 0331 or 0332, or maybe 0335? As I've already observed, he simply couldn't be that exact...and bearing in mind the constraints of late Victorian timekeeping, neither can you or I....

What I am contending is that NOWHERE in the evidence is there anything that precludes a murder at say 0331 to 0335, and there is in fact a witness who's evidence actually suggests it...No such witness suggests a later time.

Thank you

Dave

[Fisherman]

Dave:

"I made the distance to Mizen nearer 400 yards..but it doesn't matter in the least if it's an equal distance."

It "doesnīt matter" ...? What IS this? Of course it matters to get the distances right. Itīs 300 yards or less we are speaking of, not 400.

"For the qualified policemen you argue fifteen minutes over the body and to reach the doctors house..."

NO! No, no and no AGAIN! It was a RETURN trip. Neil saw the body, examined it, checked the door to Brownīs and signalled Thain down, whereupon Thain came to the spot, was informed and set off to Llewellyn. Neil says he saw the body at 3.45, that means that it MUST have taken some time to examine it and check the door, just as it would have taken time for Thain to reach the spot. Therefore, it will NOT have been 3.45 as he set off. I hope you see that this must apply?
Furthermore, Paul says that it was ALSO 3.45 as HE saw the body. You DO realize that this is not in accordance with Neil? You do also, I hope, realize that we may need to put Neil in place at 3.48-3.50? Yes?

The combination of finding Nichols on Neils behalf, checking her, checking the door at Browns, summoning Thain, informing him, and sending him to Llewellyn, means that we are looking at a time space of around five minutes or more, especially if we allow for fetching the cape at the slaughtererīs.

And to these five or more minutes, we must then add Thains ten minutes to return. Surely you can do the maths here, Dave?

"I allowed two minutes for the return walk of 300 yards..."

But not a second to wake Llewellyn up and give him time to get his clothes on? Oh, okay.

"Guess what...I allowed ten minutes...give or take the couple of minutes to his door..."

Then why were you laughing at the combined time of fifteen minutes? Do you think Thain teleported himself to Whitechapel Road?

"So where's this in the evidence? On the contrary, Thain testifies that the doctor attended promptly, suggesting this fanciful diversion simply didn't happen."

It has nothing to do with the doctor. It was THAINīS cape, and it was probably fetched en route to the doctor - although Thain denied it.

"Show me where my distances or timings are wrong"

Be for real. I HAVE done.

"Nowhere did I discuss the rate of bleed...and nowhere does Neil...he merely says he saw blood oozing from a wound...which is to say nothing about blood actively gushing...OOzing, was it actually sluggishly moving or just unsurprisingly present in the wound and still liquid?"

To ooze is to trickle. Itīs not to stand still. Not even your imagination would allow for such a thing, I hope.

"save your scorn for yourself...."

Take great care here, Dave. People who say "There goes your case" and who claims to openly laugh at you, are normally the ones who are the scorners. So donīt try and twist that one too 180 degrees around.

The best,
Fisherman

[Cogidubnus]

So you think if someone's throat's cut at say 0332 to 0335 then their body's going to be cold by 0340? You two fixate over the odd minute or two when it suits you, yet brush over the odd five or ten minutes when it doesn't...

Bloody hell, Dave - donīt go saying things on my behalf I would never say myself!! We KNOW that she was warm when Neil saw her, and we KNOW that she was still warm when Llewellyn felt her. But warmth is not a very useful indicator.

This post Fish, was quite clearly directed in response to both yourself and Lechmere...because the two of you each, clearly, feel free to answer postings directed to the other...so is it suddenly unfair to expect you to respond collectively? Because if it is, then you know what the answer is, don't you?

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

OK let's go back to my original posting and your comments upon it shall we?

First of all, what Paul says at the inquest is this: "The man walked with him to Montague-street, and there they saw a policeman. Not more than four minutes had elapsed from the time he first saw the woman." That means that you should probably exclude the conversation with Mizen from the four minutes - the time started ticking when Paul first saw the woman, and stopped ticking as he saw Mizen. Small but important detail, Dave!
Next - where did you get it from that Mizen was "a good deal further away" than 300 yards? Did you - by mistake - measure the distance from Brady Street? You see, the distance up to Mizen would have been slightly short of 300 yards, if anything.

I made the distance to Mizen nearer 400 yards..but it doesn't matter in the least if it's an equal distance. For the unqualified carmen four minutes over the body and to reach Mizen...For the qualified policemen you argue fifteen minutes over the body and to reach the doctors house...It doesn't equate.

And letīs move back to your first point, where you compare the 300 yards to Llewellynīs house to the distance Paul and Lechmere walked to reach Mizen. Now that we know that it was a very comparable - and not longer! - stretch, we may do well to recognize that whereas the carmen walked one-way, Thain had to return. That means, Dave, that you are not dealing with 300 yards in the first case; you are dealing with the double distance, 600 yards!
Did you forget that?

Read what I did say before criticising what I didn't...I allowed two minutes for the return walk of 300 yards...

Moreover, the comparison you make, does that weigh in that Thain had to knock the doctor up, inform him what had happened and then wait until he had clothed himself and found his medical gear? I think not.

And have you read what Thain says himself, sworn in at the inquest? Have you seen what time he claims it took to wake the doctor up, wait for him to get ready, and then walk back to Buckīs Row? Have you, Dave? Thain said it took ten minutes to do so.

Guess what...I allowed ten minutes...give or take the couple of minutes to his door...

Have you realized that he probably went into the slaughterers en route to Llewellyn, fetching his police cape? So to the ten minutes Thain says it took him to go back, you now need to add the time it took him to go to Whitechapel Road, quite possibly looking in at Winthrop Street to fetch his cape on the way.

So where's this in the evidence? On the contrary, Thain testifies that the doctor attended promptly, suggesting this fanciful diversion simply didn't happen.

Having misinterpreted what was said, having gotten the distances wrong, having missed out on the evidence Thain gave etcetera, etcetera, you may need to refrain from laughing.

Show me where my distances or timings are wrong...in the evidence...

If you have any more to say on this issue, Dave, then please get the bits and pieces right, for your own sake if nothing else.

So far as I can see I have...and later on I generously added that the odd five minutes extra (if you insist on it) was equally of no import, because the doctor's guess couldn't be that precise anyway...

Nowhere did I discuss the rate of bleed...and nowhere does Neil...he merely says he saw blood oozing from a wound...which is to say nothing about blood actively gushing...OOzing, was it actually sluggishly moving or just unsurprisingly present in the wound and still liquid?

Go back...read what I actually said in my post...then save your scorn for yourself....

Dave

[Fisherman]

But you ARE ill-informed, Dave! You have the wrong distance up to Mizen, you confuse 300 yards with 600 yards, you forget that Thain himself assured the inquest that the return trip ONLY took ten minutes, you fail to see that Paul never included the Mizen conversation in his four-minute estimate, you leave out the cape, you leave out the walk from Brady Street to Brownīs ...

Itīs a disaster, Dave. How could I call it anything but ill-informed? And when I point it out, you, instead of acknowledging this, change the subject ...?

"So you think if someone's throat's cut at say 0332 to 0335 then their body's going to be cold by 0340?"

Bloody hell, Dave - donīt go saying things on my behalf I would never say myself!! We KNOW that she was warm when Neil saw her, and we KNOW that she was still warm when Llewellyn felt her. But warmth is not a very useful indicator.

The woman had had her gut ripped open, with a massive loss of blood. But much more importantly, she had had her carotid arteries severed. Now, Dave, a woman like Nichols would have had four and a half, five litres of blood in her while walking the earth. But when you cut a carotid artery straight off, that blood will leave the body fairly quickly. The heart pumps them five litres around the body in one minute only.

This means that if you have your carotid artery cut off, you will bleed out completely in very few minutes. Technically, if you sever the main aorta of the body and the heart goes on pumping for a minute, you will be dry inside.

So we are not speaking of any real possibility that she had her throat severed down to the bone, cutting off ALL the veins in her neck, at 3.30, only to merrily bleed on when Neil saw her at around 3.45. There will be a time lapse of three, four minutes between Lechmereīs and Neils sightings, and that time lapse will have been enough for almost all of the blood being drained afterwards. It oozed still when Neil saw her, but that would have been the last of her blood trickling out.

So Nichols was cut very close to 3.40-3.45. That is not to say that Lechmere MUST have done the cutting, but if he didnīt, somebody else did JUST BEFORE our carman arrived.

If you can find me a case where somebody had all major vessels in the neck cut off, and still bled fifteen minutes later, I would be very interested to hear about it. So you could make yourself useful and find yourself a chance to strengthen your case by going looking for it.

Donīt blame me if it becomes a longish look, though.

The best,
Fisherman

[Cogidubnus]

So you think if someone's throat's cut at say 0332 to 0335 then their body's going to be cold by 0340? You two fixate over the odd minute or two when it suits you, yet brush over the odd five or ten minutes when it doesn't...

When someone trips you up you bluster and bluff and accuse them of being ill-informed...

So, Dave, what was it you wanted to know?

Nothing from you...don't make me laugh

Dave

[Lechmere]

When Paul touched polly he stated that he felt the faintest dwindling signs of life still present (those weren't his exact words obviously before an analist picks me up).
The blood was freshly flowing when Neil found her
It is clear that polly had only just been killed.
The half hour estimate was 'within half an hour'.
It is absolutely clear that the doctor got there after 4.
The best estimate for time of death will be 3.40 - 3.45.
That is consistent with all that we know of the case.
The train story is a red herring - a witness statement made many days later - they are notoriously unreliable.

[Fisherman]

I am merely pointing out that your former post was totally uninformed and ignorant and made comparions between two occurences in a totally wrongful manner, Dave.

As far as I can tell, that has nothing at all to do with the issue of how accurate Victorian doctors were.

I am quite prepared to discuss that issue too, but to be perfectly honest I donīt have high hopes of an informed discussion on your behalf.

And - just as an aside - I find it slightly peculiar that YOU for some reason feel that you are entitled to laugh at ME, when you have just demonstrated a massive loss of insight into the case and itīs particulars.

So, Dave, what was it you wanted to know?

The best,
Fisherman

[Cogidubnus]

Green?

So the timescale's out by what? five minutes...you reckon a Victorian doctor can be accurate within 5 minutes on an estimated time of death less than an hour before? Again...don't make me laugh...(you won't like me when I'm happy)...

All the best

Dave

[Fisherman]

No answer from Dave yet? Maybe he died from laughter, then?

Anyways, Dave, if you are out there, I have no found the time to dissect your latest post. It is interesting work, no matter how we look upon it. But letīs take it from the start, shall we? Here is your last post in sections, Dave, with my comments alongside it:

"So the two constables (professionals, accustomed to the concept, (if not the practice), of murder, spent a whole 15 minutes discussing the issue over the body and running 300 yards to fetch the doctor....small round objects!"

To begin with, it was just the one PC that ran for Llewellyn. To carry on, I donīt think that I have ever stated "a whole 15 minutes" - but it wonīt be far off the mark at any rate.

"Whilst Paul and Cross spent just 4 minutes over the body AND reporting to Mizen a good deal further away? (equally risible in my view)..."

First of all, what Paul says at the inquest is this: "The man walked with him to Montague-street, and there they saw a policeman. Not more than four minutes had elapsed from the time he first saw the woman." That means that you should probably exclude the conversation with Mizen from the four minutes - the time started ticking when Paul first saw the woman, and stopped ticking as he saw Mizen. Small but important detail, Dave!
Next - where did you get it from that Mizen was "a good deal further away" than 300 yards? Did you - by mistake - measure the distance from Brady Street? You see, the distance up to Mizen would have been slightly short of 300 yards, if anything.

And letīs move back to your first point, where you compare the 300 yards to Llewellynīs house to the distance Paul and Lechmere walked to reach Mizen. Now that we know that it was a very comparable - and not longer! - stretch, we may do well to recognize that whereas the carmen walked one-way, Thain had to return. That means, Dave, that you are not dealing with 300 yards in the first case; you are dealing with the double distance, 600 yards!
Did you forget that?

Moreover, the comparison you make, does that weigh in that Thain had to knock the doctor up, inform him what had happened and then wait until he had clothed himself and found his medical gear? I think not.

And have you read what Thain says himself, sworn in at the inquest? Have you seen what time he claims it took to wake the doctor up, wait for him to get ready, and then walk back to Buckīs Row? Have you, Dave? Thain said it took ten minutes to do so.

Have you realized that he probably went into the slaughterers en route to Llewellyn, fetching his police cape? So to the ten minutes Thain says it took him to go back, you now need to add the time it took him to go to Whitechapel Road, quite possibly looking in at Winthrop Street to fetch his cape on the way. Walking at a brisk pace will take you around 125 yards in a minute. Letīs say that Thain spent only two and a half minutes to go to Whitechapel road and that it took him a minute to fetch his cape. Then we have thirteen and a half minutes accounted for, relating ONLY to Thains excursion. What we have not yet added, though, is the time it took Neil to inform Thain of what had happened, just as we have not accounted for the time it took Thain to go down from Brady Street to Browns stable yard. Together, this would make for another, say, one and a half minute. And that makes a total of, letīs see.. hmm ... Ah, there we are: fifteen minutes!

"Don't make me laugh more than I am now...you might set off my heart..."

Having misinterpreted what was said, having gotten the distances wrong, having missed out on the evidence Thain gave etcetera, etcetera, you may need to refrain from laughing.

On the other hand, I have been given a very good reason to have a laugh. I donīt though - I feel much more sad.

If you have any more to say on this issue, Dave, then please get the bits and pieces right, for your own sake if nothing else.

The best,
Fisherman