Charles Lechmere, finally vindicated, proof ?

[Rubyretro]

Bridewell;233876]Hi Dave,

"Do we have many examples of people bragging that their relatives had a ripper connection?"

Apparently not.

Tony Williams, perhaps, for the alleged involvement of 'Uncle Jack'?

Regards, Bridewell

I said the Shine family (google it). It was obviously a story based on Schwartz ( spelling ?). That is one example that Lechmere mean't.

Otherwise, I have read Garry Wroe suggesting the same thing, and so I hope that he may chime in with examples..

People being what they are makes me sure that it's true..

[Bridewell]

I said the Shine family (google it). It was obviously a story based on Schawtz ( spelling ?).

This is the post I was replying to:

Lechmere: then there is the guy who claimed a connection to do with the stride murder (I forget who)
.
Nathan Shine.

Apologies if I missed another one.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Rubyretro]

Colin...grrr..I see that you replied before I edited to correct the spelling of 'Schwartz'. And that's all I see for the mo' (it's late).

Tell a lie..these 'bragging people' are going to be totally anonymous and unknown 'storytellers' aren't they ? Impossible to quote.

I have a day off on Monday, and shall see how many people brag a connection to a modern murderer like the Yorkshire Ripper..
(and don't forget that Charlie was ostensibly only a witness).

[curious]

I'm very sorry, but I've only just spotted this...in my honest opinion, despite it's speculative nature, it's one of the more intelligent postings on this thread...better than any of mine anyway...

All the best

Dave

Thank you, Dave.

I appreciate the kind words.

Also, I believe I recall reading somewhere that the stepfather died about the same time as the baby.

IF the Lechmeres were caring for two dying family members during that time, (I don't know that they were because I'm not privy to the death certificates) I suspect they were barely aware of what was going on in the world around them.

IF they were not tuned in, they certainly would not be talking about it in their later years.

Just my thinking. No proof of course, but when does that stop anyone.

curious

[curious]

.One might think that she would show an interest in her husband when he got back from the daily graft, and ask how his day had been and things like that . . . .why would people feel ashamed ?

In those days childbirth was very dangerous, both emotionally and physically. I'll mention it again. We have no idea what her health was like.

and why would people be ashamed?

It was a very different world from what it is today. It was the Victorian Era, for goodness sake.

That time and for many years following, young girls who had out-of-wedlock babies were often turned out by their families, told to not to bother to come home. A couple who eloped had disgraced their families and were often ostracized. Hard to imagine today isn't it.

If an unmarried girl who had a baby was allowed to stay in the home, she would not be allowed out to visit when company came because DECENT people did not associate with such.

There's no wonder Lechmere did not want to touch a prostitute, or prop her up, etc. Decent, hardworking people avoided "that class of people."

Caz keeps trying to tell people it was a class thing and it was. It was what "decent" people did and did not do.

People actually used to feel shame for such actions as the JtR victims engaged in, they were ashamed of a "ruined" life.

Perspectives then and now were in many ways directly opposite.

That is why people would be ashamed in being mixed up in something as sordid and disgusting as these crimes were.

curious

[moonbegger]

Was there a legal requirement to state your home address whilst giving evidence at an inquest?

An inquest is not a court of law and is not bound by any rules of anonymity. The coroner can run the proceedings however he sees fit as long as the Coroners rules are followed.

Cross stated that he was in the employ of Pickfords which probably satisfied the coroner as to the validity of the witness..its also very likely the Police had already confirmed this as a contact address for him.

To state that not giving his home address when it wasn't even required as some sort of cover up is stretching the "theory" a little to my mind..

Hello Mr X ,

Yes i'm afraid witness are legally bound to answer any question the coroner See's fit to asks them , within reason .... and yes the Coroner did always ask " will the witness state their full name and Address for the inquest" take a Look for your self , through the countless witness statements .. of every JtR inquest .. The only people who are not pressed for an address are either Policemen , ex Policemen , doctors , and non essential witnesses .. But everyone is asked all the same . it is there in black and white Mr X

"In Reply to the Coroner he said" ..

Edward Walker .. I live at 15 , maidwell street , Albony rd
Henry Tomkins, Horse slaugter , 12 coventry street , Bethnal green .
Emily Holland , 18 Thrawl street
Emma green , cottage next to murder scene
Robert paul , 30 Forster street ,

I could go on through every inquest , but i'm sure you get the point . Each and every time it is always the same . The first thing confirmed by the witness is Name and ADDRESS.

cheers

moonbegger

[Observer]

Hi Moonbegger

Emma Green, cottage next to the murder scene

why is that any different to

Chas Andrew Cross, carman in the employ of Mssrs Pickford and Co

Both easily identifiable, both easily traceable by the police or indeed the killer of Polly Nichols

Observer

[Lechmere]

Need I point out that Toppy's story - true or not - was relayed by his son.
Incidentally doubting that East End Families boasted of Ripper connections is about as facile as claiming that you cannot estimate how long it takes to walk a short distance.

[Lechmere]

Cog
I am unconcerned whether you wish to believe that Charles Lechmere was so poor that he could only afford one set of clothes as there is Plenty to suggest otherwise, just as I am unconcerned whether you chose to adopt the alternative line that maybe he thought he might be able to get to work, as again there is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise - and in any case why actually wear the apron in court.

[Cogidubnus]

Masonic carman?

Cog
I am unconcerned whether you wish to believe that Charles Lechmere was so poor that he could only afford one set of clothes as there is Plenty to suggest otherwise, just as I am unconcerned whether you chose to adopt the alternative line that maybe he thought he might be able to get to work, as again there is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise - and in any case why actually wear the apron in court.

That's honestly fine by me Lechmere and not a problem at all...

All the very best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

"Do we have many examples of people bragging that their relatives had a ripper connection?"

Violenia was a discredited witness. Toppy & Shine did their own bragging.

Tony Williams, perhaps, for the alleged involvement of 'Uncle Jack'?

So including the supposedly fraudulent "Shine" case we haven't any so far...ok

All the best

Dave

[CitizenX]

Hello Mr X ,

Yes i'm afraid witness are legally bound to answer any question the coroner See's fit to asks them , within reason .... and yes the Coroner did always ask " will the witness state their full name and Address for the inquest" take a Look for your self , through the countless witness statements .. of every JtR inquest .. The only people who are not pressed for an address are either Policemen , ex Policemen , doctors , and non essential witnesses .. But everyone is asked all the same . it is there in black and white Mr X

"In Reply to the Coroner he said" ..

Edward Walker .. I live at 15 , maidwell street , Albony rd
Henry Tomkins, Horse slaugter , 12 coventry street , Bethnal green .
Emily Holland , 18 Thrawl street
Emma green , cottage next to murder scene
Robert paul , 30 Forster street ,

I could go on through every inquest , but i'm sure you get the point . Each and every time it is always the same . The first thing confirmed by the witness is Name and ADDRESS.

cheers

moonbegger

Not sure where you created the "In reply to the coroner he said" quote as it's not in any of the inquest reports on Nichols I can find.

You are also incorrect in saying that only Police Officers and Surgeons did not give an address.

Read the testimony recorded for Patrick Mulshaw, the Whitechapel District Board of Works nightwatchman. He doesn't give an address either, just the location where he was working. Thomas Eade another, albeit unreliable, witness also states that he was "a signalman, in the employ of the East London Railway", but gives no home address. These two examples alone are from the Polly Nicols inquest reported in the press...maybe there are more examples if I started wading through the other inquest reports.

Cross stated that he was in the employ of Pickfords. This must have been acceptable to the coroner to establish identification. Pickfords was a reputable employer, Cross had worked for them for over 20 years and the police had obviously checked this out.

It's all there in black and white

[Monty]

Failure to provide a name and an address, when asked for by a PC, was an offense.

Not sure how that stands at inques I must admit, did everywhere else.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Failure to provide a name and an address, when asked for by a PC, was an offense.

Not sure how that stands at inques I must admit, did everywhere else.

Monty

Hello Monty,

Good morning.

In comparison with comment in court, 'Joe Bloggs of No fixed abode', I have a vague memory that it isnt a requirement unless asked for specifically by the Coroner? I may be totally wrong though I admit.

Best wishes

Phil

[Monty]

Phil,

I'm merely quoting the Rules and Regulation book. As admitted, I do not know how that stands in inquest.

I do know when I've given evidence I have stated my name and where I work.

My point is, regarding the matter of Cross giving his name and address when requested, is that failure to do so was deemed an offence.

Monty