So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel?

[Patrick S]

You miss my point! He was a psychopath and feigned to want to help, all the while amusing himself with Paul.

It is only if we are absolutely certain that he "tried to help the woman" out of good will that we can rule out that he was a psychopath.

To be fair, Jon - can you do that?

I see things are well in hand here on the boards.

I'd like to add only this: I used to become quite frustrated and agitated by posts like this one. I expended much energy and many keystrokes arguing against them, saying things like, "Thank God the criminal justice system doesn't work this way!", and pointing out the issues inherent in assuming Lechmere was a psychopath because his actions and likely behavior and demeanor - had he killed Nichols - might indicate that he WAS a psychopath (his interaction with Paul, Mizen, at the inquest, etc.).

Now, I still believe Lechmere didn't kill Nichols, was not Jack the Ripper, and was what I and others have always believed him to be: A witness in the case, a man who found "a woman lying in Buck's Row". But, I will say that I was dead wrong in maintaining that the "criminal justice system doesn't work this way".

Having been involved in an unrelated research project over most of past year, one focused on modern police methods, I am certain that Christer's suspicions around Lechmere would be quite mainstream and fully supported by many in the law enforcement community had these crimes been committed in, say, the past quarter century.

We began by looking at about 700 murder cases. One caveat: NONE of thse cases involved SERIAL murder. But, as I said, this was about the investigations, legal processes, etc. Now, The overwhelming majority of those cases were "solved" almost immediately. The killer committed suicide or was otherwise killed, or was immediately arrested, within hour or days, caught in act, identified by multiple eye witnesses, caught on camera, etc. The killer left behind a figurative truckload of physical evidence, DNA, fibers, the victims blood on their person, in their home... you get the idea. Of these, just under fifty cases fell out from over the past twenty-five years from across the United States and Canada. These cases left law enforcement somewhat stumped, with no immediate (usually fewer than 90 days) arrests.

It's clear that detectives/police don't like to be stumped. So, for the most part, with a few notable exceptions, they don't stay that way for long... for better or worse. Circumstantial cases are then built around theories that are, sometimes, at least in my view, FAR LESS credible than the one Christer has presented around Lechmere. And in the VAST majority of those cases the accused was convicted, jailed, sometimes executed.

So, my views with respect to Lechmere as the Ripper have not changed. But, my outrage or frustration or whatever you want to call it... about the theory itself has been muted because I was, frankly, largely ignorant as to how modern law enforcement (and then prosecution and the courts) conduct their business in "hard to solve" murder investigations.

[Jon Guy]

I see things are well in hand here on the boards.

I'd like to add only this: I used to become quite frustrated and agitated by posts like this one. I expended much energy and many keystrokes arguing against them, saying things like, "Thank God the criminal justice system doesn't work this way!", and pointing out the issues inherent in assuming Lechmere was a psychopath because his actions and likely behavior and demeanor - had he killed Nichols - might indicate that he WAS a psychopath (his interaction with Paul, Mizen, at the inquest, etc.).

Now, I still believe Lechmere didn't kill Nichols, was not Jack the Ripper, and was what I and others have always believed him to be: A witness in the case, a man who found "a woman lying in Buck's Row". But, I will say that I was dead wrong in maintaining that the "criminal justice system doesn't work this way".

Having been involved in an unrelated research project over most of past year, one focused on modern police methods, I am certain that Christer's suspicions around Lechmere would be quite mainstream and fully supported by many in the law enforcement community had these crimes been committed in, say, the past quarter century.

We began by looking at about 700 murder cases. One caveat: NONE of thse cases involved SERIAL murder. But, as I said, this was about the investigations, legal processes, etc. Now, The overwhelming majority of those cases were "solved" almost immediately. The killer committed suicide or was otherwise killed, or was immediately arrested, within hour or days, caught in act, identified by multiple eye witnesses, caught on camera, etc. The killer left behind a figurative truckload of physical evidence, DNA, fibers, the victims blood on their person, in their home... you get the idea. Of these, just under fifty cases fell out from over the past twenty-five years from across the United States and Canada. These cases left law enforcement somewhat stumped, with no immediate (usually fewer than 90 days) arrests.

It's clear that detectives/police don't like to be stumped. So, for the most part, with a few notable exceptions, they don't stay that way for long... for better or worse. Circumstantial cases are then built around theories that are, sometimes, at least in my view, FAR LESS credible than the one Christer has presented around Lechmere. And in the VAST majority of those cases the accused was convicted, jailed, sometimes executed.

So, my views with respect to Lechmere as the Ripper have not changed. But, my outrage or frustration or whatever you want to call it... about the theory itself has been muted because I was, frankly, largely ignorant as to how modern law enforcement (and then prosecution and the courts) conduct their business in "hard to solve" murder investigations.

Patrick, for Gawd`s sake, you`ve got 15 mins to delete the post before Christer see`s it ;-)

[Abby Normal]

What should he have done, Abby ?

But remember, it`s not a case of if they see a policeman. They would undoubtedly see a policeman.
Also, he may lose his job if he`s not at work on time.

anything but that. there was two of them. he could have said stay here while I get a policeman or a doctor, or he could have stayed there. Obviously its serious. the woman was in dire need of help. and its not like they just thought she was drunk-they could tell it was worse than that.

and screw his work, sometimes in life, if your a good person with a modicum of morals or empathy you do whats right. Not oh well im late for work, well tell the first cop we see. theres no guarantee they would see a cop either.

ef Lechmere, he also killed a kid, whether an accident or being careless. dude was bad news as far as im concerned.

[Abby Normal]

No, he was treated for a number of decades at Broadmoor.



Broad daylight on Wimbledon Common - not risk taking !!!!!
Yes, a flat, ring any bells ;-) Read what he did to the poor woman.



Sutcliffe and Napper did well to remain at liberty then



C`mon Christer, facts !?!?

Anyway, I just popped in to chuck some chum in the water.
You have a great Christmas, and I hope you get who you want as your new manager next season ?

Sutcliff went to the asylum after he was busted. its a common ploy by murderes to act crazy. he wasnt schizophrenic.


napper, like chase and mullins probably was-and they get caught as do most bat **** crazy serial killers pretty quickly.


the ripper was not schizophrenic-no overtly insane person could get away with what the ripper did-convincing women at the height of the ripper scare to go with him no less, maintaining composure and ruses-and remain uncaught if they were scizo IMHO.

[Fisherman]

I see things are well in hand here on the boards.

I'd like to add only this: I used to become quite frustrated and agitated by posts like this one. I expended much energy and many keystrokes arguing against them, saying things like, "Thank God the criminal justice system doesn't work this way!", and pointing out the issues inherent in assuming Lechmere was a psychopath because his actions and likely behavior and demeanor - had he killed Nichols - might indicate that he WAS a psychopath (his interaction with Paul, Mizen, at the inquest, etc.).

Now, I still believe Lechmere didn't kill Nichols, was not Jack the Ripper, and was what I and others have always believed him to be: A witness in the case, a man who found "a woman lying in Buck's Row". But, I will say that I was dead wrong in maintaining that the "criminal justice system doesn't work this way".

Having been involved in an unrelated research project over most of past year, one focused on modern police methods, I am certain that Christer's suspicions around Lechmere would be quite mainstream and fully supported by many in the law enforcement community had these crimes been committed in, say, the past quarter century.

We began by looking at about 700 murder cases. One caveat: NONE of thse cases involved SERIAL murder. But, as I said, this was about the investigations, legal processes, etc. Now, The overwhelming majority of those cases were "solved" almost immediately. The killer committed suicide or was otherwise killed, or was immediately arrested, within hour or days, caught in act, identified by multiple eye witnesses, caught on camera, etc. The killer left behind a figurative truckload of physical evidence, DNA, fibers, the victims blood on their person, in their home... you get the idea. Of these, just under fifty cases fell out from over the past twenty-five years from across the United States and Canada. These cases left law enforcement somewhat stumped, with no immediate (usually fewer than 90 days) arrests.

It's clear that detectives/police don't like to be stumped. So, for the most part, with a few notable exceptions, they don't stay that way for long... for better or worse. Circumstantial cases are then built around theories that are, sometimes, at least in my view, FAR LESS credible than the one Christer has presented around Lechmere. And in the VAST majority of those cases the accused was convicted, jailed, sometimes executed.

So, my views with respect to Lechmere as the Ripper have not changed. But, my outrage or frustration or whatever you want to call it... about the theory itself has been muted because I was, frankly, largely ignorant as to how modern law enforcement (and then prosecution and the courts) conduct their business in "hard to solve" murder investigations.

I would not want to convict Lechmere on insufficient evidence. I have said before and I say again that if I was to pass judgment on him on the existing evidence, I would make the call "not guilty" - but I would feel that I let a guilty man walk afterwards.

I fully agree, therefore, that the judicial system must uphold a very demanding attitude when somebody is accused of something, and that attitude should only grow more demanding the more severe the crime and punishment grows.

I don´t assume as such that Lechmere was a psychopath other than in the meaning that I believe that he was guilty and I also believe that he must have been a psychopath if guilty.
It is not as if I award him a psychopath status before I make my call. There is absolutely not a scintilla of indications that he was a psychopath, and I dount very much that there will ever be, given the distance in time - to assess a psychopath, one must evaluate his interactions with other people, and we will not be able to do that in Lechmere´s case. It is only if some document surfaces that points in this direction that the suggestion can take flight, and I fully understand that.

This does not, however, detract from how I say that IF he was the killer, then he would certainly have been a psychopath, given the behaviour involved on both the murder night and at the inquest.

[Fisherman]

Patrick, for Gawd`s sake, you`ve got 15 mins to delete the post before Christer see`s it ;-)

He had more time, actually - I was out shopping for Christmas. And there is nothing in his post that I find outrageous in any way - contrary to that, I agree with him on many a point.

[Fisherman]

its not like they just thought she was drunk-they could tell it was worse than that.

And did they tell Mizen about the severity of the errand?

Did they even tell him that Lechmere was the finder?

Not if we are to believe the PC - which of course is why people choose not to believe him...

[Fisherman]

Sutcliff went to the asylum after he was busted. its a common ploy by murderes to act crazy. he wasnt schizophrenic.


napper, like chase and mullins probably was-and they get caught as do most bat **** crazy serial killers pretty quickly.


the ripper was not schizophrenic-no overtly insane person could get away with what the ripper did-convincing women at the height of the ripper scare to go with him no less, maintaining composure and ruses-and remain uncaught if they were scizo IMHO.

... and a very sensible opinion it is, Abby!

[Jon Guy]

. And there is nothing in his post that I find outrageous in any way - contrary to that, I agree with him on many a point.

I know ... that`s why I was trying to encourage him to delete it ;-)

[Abby Normal]

And did they tell Mizen about the severity of the errand?

Did they even tell him that Lechmere was the finder?

Not if we are to believe the PC - which of course is why people choose not to believe him...

yup. compare him to someone who was a good person-mary Kelly. showing empathy to friends-letting them stay at her place-to the point where it harmed her relationship with her man. warning others not to do as she did. remaining freindly to barnett eventhough he couldnt offer any money any more. Hutch lingering around, at the very least probably looking for a place to crash, maybe taking advantage of her kind nature.


her good heart probably contributed to her getting killed-and by someone not like her.. someone like Lech. even his name sucks.

Not if we are to believe the PC - which of course is why people choose not to believe him..

yup-lechs actions are why I tend to believe Mizen, or at least not believe he lied. if anyone lied it was lech.

[Fisherman]

I know ... that`s why I was trying to encourage him to delete it ;-)

Ah yes, I see how you mean. A tad late for that, though!

A question - when you said "C´mon , Christer - facts?", what was it you thought you had seen:

1. Me saying that the blood proved that Lechmere was the killer and that the disagreement between Lechmere and Mizen meant that the carman must have lied.

or

2. Me saying that Nichols was still bleeding as Lechmere was with her and that Lechmere and Mizen disagreed.

[Jon Guy]

Ah yes, I see how you mean. A tad late for that, though!

A question - when you said "C´mon , Christer - facts?", what was it you thought you had seen:

1. Me saying that the blood proved that Lechmere was the killer and that the disagreement between Lechmere and Mizen meant that the carman must have lied.

or

2. Me saying that Nichols was still bleeding as Lechmere was with her and that Lechmere and Mizen disagreed.

I will have to get back to you on the above.
I`m off christmas shopping now... got to get myself a satsuma and a walnut and then I`m all done.

[Harry D]

To describe throat-cutting and beheading as a "cut neck" is inaccurate and misleading - in both cases. With particular reference to the torso murders, you wouldn't describe the removal of an entire limb as a "cut leg" or "cut arm", would you?

Sorry to necro this thread, but those Danish girls who just got butchered in Morocco by muslims, keep having their deaths reported as "neck wounds caused by knives" when they actually had their heads chopped off.

Of course, the inaccurate misrepresentation of the facts here might be entirely a political matter.

[Fisherman]

Sorry to necro this thread, but those Danish girls who just got butchered in Morocco by muslims, keep having their deaths reported as "neck wounds caused by knives" when they actually had their heads chopped off.

Of course, the inaccurate misrepresentation of the facts here might be entirely a political matter.

The whole discussion as such is more than a bit ridiculous. I think Gareth´s mission is one of trying to divide the two series up in unreconcilable categories and make it seem as if the cutting - that may well have been the exact same in all cases, but for the added severing of the spine in the torso cases - was wildly different.
To a degree, the reason that I personally speak about cut necks could well lie in how this is what we say in Sweden; those who are subjected to this kind of violence have their "hals" (neck) cut. The Swedish word for throat is "strupe", but we don´t normally speak of people having it cut. When we speak of the "strupe" being cut, we generally speak of cut animals where there is no neck to be seen, like for example fish.
Anyway, I think it is important to note that deep cuts to the part between the shoulders and the head were made in both series, and that IS a similarity whichever way we choose to look at it.

Being the charitable and flexible fellow that I am, I am otherwise prepared to speak of deeply cut throats in the Ripper case - and completely severed throats in the torso cases...

[Sam Flynn]

The accurate categorisation of the wounds is completely necessary.