So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel?

[Batman]

What's Cross doing with a Liston knife going to work down Buck's Row?

How did Cross avoid being caught with a knife when he is out at an hour going to work when JtR was striking and 500+ PCs (on shift work) actively looking for JtR, especially in the early hours?

[MrBarnett]

What's Cross doing with a Liston knife going to work down Buck's Row?

How did Cross avoid being caught with a knife when he is out at an hour going to work when JtR was striking and 500+ PCs (on shift work) actively looking for JtR, especially in the early hours?

Perhaps he wasn’t wearing his ‘I’m carrying a sharp knife’ lapel badge. Some serial killers are devious like that.

[Monty]

Fake history? Hardly. Thats how history is done monty. You interpret and analyze events. Fish is interpreting the events a certain way, a way in which points to lechmere as being a likely candidate for the ripper. He hasnt fabricated any facts.
He hasnt declared the case is proven. He just siad he thinks lech is the ripper and stated why. Whats wrong with that.

Ill tell you what Fake history is —-its when you falsely accuse someone of something. Apologizing is good, but the damage is already done.

Bet you get a great view up there on your high horse Abby,

Fake history is a reference to the biased recollection of Christer, as opposed to this specific murder case.

Monty

[John G]

Well, his route to work from STGITE would probably have taken him in that direction. I believe that's Fish's thinking.

Also, although CAL said he had worked for Pickfords for over 20 years, he didn't say he had worked exclusively out of the Broad Street depot, and in his earlier years with the firm they also operated out of the Haydon Square depot, which was close by Mitre Square. I once found a list of the Pickfords Haydon Square cricket team (1860s). Sadly there was no Cross or Lechmere on it. Possibly as an H Div. cop living just north of Cable Street, Thomas Cross may have been better known at Haydon Square than at Broad Street in the City?

Well, Old Broad Street is only 0.4 miles away from Mitre Street, or say a 6-9 minute walk. However, Mitre Street would not be on his route to work, without significant diversions. More problematic for me is why would he be heading in the direction of his employment in the early hours of the morning?

I mean, after Berner Street, did he say to himself, "well that was an unsatisfying experience, I'll head off to somewhere near to where I work to find another victim". Because I think that would be an odd thing to do.

[Monty]

I can't recall who posted the research. It's on here somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.

It's possible that CAL thought giving evidence at an inquest was a less formal affair than registering his kids at school etc etc etc, but I doubt it. You're a man who might know these things through personal experience, are people who would feel obliged to give their real names in a court of law more relaxed about things at an inquest, happy to give any old street name to a coroner?

I have no problem with the idea that he may have obtained his job at Pickfords as Charles Cross, but would he still have been using the name almost two decades after his stepfather had died? Were the kids known as Cross at home and Lechmere at school?

I wouldn't necessarily infer guilt from his unwillingness to associate his name with the sordid murder of a prostitute in a Whitechapel back street. Rather an unwillingness to associate his honourable name with such an event.

I have indeed experience with regards the use of alternate names and addresses, and they are varied. And valid.

The acknowledgment re inference is pleasing to note. It’s not a peg for one should use when building a case for a suspect. Such practice wouldn’t pass the CPS stage.

With regards his use of Cross, I prefer to stick with what he stated at inquest, for the reasons given. That said, it’s not a huge issue to me to be honest.

Monty

[MrBarnett]

Well, Old Broad Street is only 0.4 miles away from Mitre Street, or say a 6-9 minute walk. However, Mitre Street would not be on his route to work, without significant diversions. More problematic for me is why would he be heading in the direction of his employment in the early hours of the morning?

I mean, after Berner Street, did he say to himself, "well that was an unsatisfying experience, I'll head off to somewhere near to where I work to find another victim". Because I think that would be an odd thing to do.

Or ‘I’ll head off to an area I’m familiar with to look for another victim. An area away from STGITE where I killed earlier this morning and away from Spitalfields and Whitechapel where I’ve killed in recent weeks.’

That’d be really odd.🤔

Where would you have recommended a frustrated killer went to slake his blood lust? Margate? Havering-atte-Bower?

[Elamarna]

Yes, and that's rather odd.

Someone once trawled through the Old Bailey records and came up with a long list of men who identified themselves by a surname other than that on their birth certs. I think the intention was to show that adopting a step parent's name etc and using it in court was a common occurrence. As indeed it was. But the reason we knew it had happened was that in every case the accused/witness also felt it appropriate to reveal their 'real' name.

'My name is Joe Bloggs, but I go by the name of Smith which is my stepfather's name' kind of thing.

Curiously, Charles Lechmere didn't do that. And the only other time we know he may have used the name Cross was when he killed a child with his cart. I say may, because it's possible that the driver of the cart was another Charles Cross who worked for Pickfords. I'm sure there's no need for me to repeat the mantra about the 100+ times he used the name Lechmere in his dealings with the authorities.

Gary,

That is a fair point about the giving of aliases; however we must not forget the very important difference. That research,by Kattrup I think, was based on the actual transcripts from the old Bailey, in criminal court. The Inquest while a legal proceeding was not the same .
And we do not have the transcript, but have to rely on press reports, which are far from perfect.

Therefore the comparison is far from conclusive, the best we can say is that the press did not report the name Lechmere, and in all probability he did not mention it, but it is not truly conclusive.


Steve

[MrBarnett]

Gary,

That is a fair point about the giving of aliases; however we must not forget the very important difference. That research,by Kattrup I think, was based on the actual transcripts from the old Bailey, in criminal court. The Inquest while a legal proceedings was not the same .
And we do not have the transcript, but have to rely on press reports, which are far from perfect.

Therefore the comparison is far from conclusive, the best we can say is that the press did not report the name Lechmere, and in all probability he did not mention it, but it is not truly conclusive.


Steve

Thanks, Steve, I believe it was Kattrup. That’ll help me track it down.

Did I imply it was conclusive? It’s possible that he gave both names but the press and the police neglected to take note of the more important one I suppose.

[MrBarnett]

Here’s the thread I was referring to. Excellent work by Kattrup:

https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10082&highlight=Alias

[Elamarna]

Thanks, Steve, I believe it was Kattrup. That’ll help me track it down.

Did I imply it was conclusive? It’s possible that he gave both names but the press and the police neglected to take note of the more important one I suppose.

Sorry Gary, i didnt mean to imply you had implied such, only that the possibility, even if remote should not be overlooked. I always find your views of CAL, to be well reasoned and realistic.


Steve

[MrBarnett]

Sorry Gary, i didnt mean to imply you had implied such, only that the possibility, even if remote should not be overlooked. I always find your views of CAL, to be well reasoned and realistic.


Steve

Hi Steve,

I come at this from a rather strange angle, I think. Rather than concentrating on the events of Buck’s Row, I’m more interested in the man’s background and antecedents. And in consequence, I can imagine a reason why he would want to avoid using the name Lechmere, even though that may have been the name he normally used.

Gary

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

I come at this from a rather strange angle, I think. Rather than concentrating on the events of Buck’s Row, I’m more interested in the man’s background and antecedents. And in consequence, I can imagine a reason why he would want to avoid using the name Lechmere, even though that may have been the name he normally used.

Gary

I believe that is a very fair position to take, given the family history. I don't find it strange at all. It is this type of "bigger picture" attitude that I find the hardline, Lechmere supporters just are not prepared to consider.
That of course is the inherent problem with suspect lead research, proving the theory becomes more important than considering all the facts, that applies to all suspect work be it Lechmere, Druitt, Bury or Kosminski.


Steve

[Darryl Kenyon]

Where would you have recommended a frustrated killer went to slake his blood lust? Margate? Havering-atte-Bower?


Just an opinion but after the probable close shave of Berner St I would expect Lech to move northwards towards his abode, maybe taking a slight detour [ Bucks row area? Were he had successfully killed before, Old montague or Chicksand st areas maybe], not go far west towards Aldgate were it is a half hour walk home.

[MrBarnett]

Where would you have recommended a frustrated killer went to slake his blood lust? Margate? Havering-atte-Bower?


Just an opinion but after the probable close shave of Berner St I would expect Lech to move northwards towards his abode, maybe taking a slight detour [ Bucks row area? Were he had successfully killed before, Old montague or Chicksand st areas maybe], not go far west towards Aldgate were it is a half hour walk home.

I see your point, Darryl. Having possibly had a close shave in Berner Street, his first thought might have been to head for home and safety. But if the urge to kill was stronger, he might have headed for somewhere experience had taught him a victim was likely to be found. And he might have felt Aldgate was such an area.

[Batman]

Perhaps he wasn’t wearing his ‘I’m carrying a sharp knife’ lapel badge. Some serial killers are devious like that.

No, instead he is wearing his 'I am walking past a few murder scenes at the same time they were murdered, every day' badge and yet not a single investigator staked out a single crime scene to witness this individual walk by at the right time and right place, as per your model?

At the very least don't you think a quick search for a potential weapon would have ensued should such a person be noted?

Cross must be walking by the same crime scenes in the "way to work" model with a liston knife.