So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel?

[MrBarnett]

Come now, Gary, don´t crash his party - there are so many things to keep track of and surely it is participating that counts...?

Fish,

This was his opening salvo, presumably based on the mistaken idea that 'Bethnal Green' (is that where Doveton Street was?) would have been CAL's 'hot zone'.

One would expect attacks around Bethnal Green. North, South, East and West of it.

Not just en route to work.

If you consider the fact that CAL may have had little or no familiarity with the Doveton Street area at the time the WM started, the whole basis for Batman's argument crumbles into dust.

Gary

[Batman]

https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-charles-cross.html

It is right there for anybody who has remotely read about this Lechmere is JtR claim.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people on the internet think if they correct a tiny mistake then it makes the whole argument go away for them.

It doesn't go away. It just remains unanswered as you fixate on this one insignificant point and then celebrate yourselves doing that.

Here it is again...

https://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=462729&postcount=94

22 Doveton Street, Bethnal Green is the full address. So yeah, it's Bethnal Green.

[etenguy]

Nope, that is a misunderstanding on your behalf. The whole thread is not about how finding a body makes you a suspect, it is about how I say that Lechmere is the best suspect GEOGRAPHICALLY speaking, since he was not only found by victim´s side at the approximate time when she was killed, but he has also a proven reason to pass through Spitalfields every morning at the relevant hours, a proven reason to visit the Berner Street area and ties to the Mitre Square area.

Please stick with what I am actually saying instead of inventing alternative truths!

But there are many who pass through Whitechapel on route to the city, quite legitimately. What brings Lechmere into focus is that he found the body. That is what distinguishes him from all the others who would by your argument be, geographically speaking, the best suspect if they had found the body. If Paul had been ten minutes ahead of Lechmere, he might be in your number one slot.

[MrBarnett]

CAL was brought up in the part of STGITE that was at the time the East End's most notorious red light district - Tiger Bay. He lived there in close proximity to his mother for decades.

In 1888 he moved away - to 'Bethnal Green', and, presumably, walked to work each morning through Whitechapel and Spitalfields along a different route, but still ultimately through the same area he had travelled for most of his adult life.

What would his 'hot zone' have been?

[MrBarnett]

CAL had barely had time to unpack the best china in Doveton Street before the WM began. Yet we’re to believe he would have radiated out from his new address into an area he may have been completely unfamiliar with, because it fits a ‘model’ of some kind?

[MrBarnett]

https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...les-cross.html

It is right there for anybody who has remotely read about this Lechmere is JtR claim.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people on the internet think if they correct a tiny mistake then it makes the whole argument go away for them.

It doesn't go away. It just remains unanswered as you fixate on this one insignificant point and then celebrate yourselves doing that.

Here it is again...

https://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=462729&postcount=94

22 Doveton Street, Bethnal Green is the full address. So yeah, it's Bethnal Green.

Doveton Street was in Mile End Old Town.

In any case, have you ever looked at a parish map of Bethnal Green? Do you think it fits into a perfect circle?

But let’s not dwell on such insignificant facts when discussing ‘geographical’ profiling and instead concentrate on the fact that Lechmere had only recently moved to Doveton Street when the murders began.

Is length of residence factored into your model?

[MrBarnett]

https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...les-cross.html

It is right there for anybody who has remotely read about this Lechmere is JtR claim.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people on the internet think if they correct a tiny mistake then it makes the whole argument go away for them.

It doesn't go away. It just remains unanswered as you fixate on this one insignificant point and then celebrate yourselves doing that.

Here it is again...

https://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=462729&postcount=94

22 Doveton Street, Bethnal Green is the full address. So yeah, it's Bethnal Green.

When was that dissertation written? I think our knowledge of CAL may have moved on in the intervening years (decades?).

[MrBarnett]

If we were to stick a compass point into Doveton Street and draw a circle with Broad Street on its circumference, how much of the area so described would have been familiar to Charles Lechmere in August, 1888?

Not much to the east, probably, but quite a bit to the west and south, where he had lived and travelled to work for most of his adult life.

However ‘scientific’ your model may be, if you don’t nuance the data you input, it’s worthless.

[Fisherman]

Fish,

This was his opening salvo, presumably based on the mistaken idea that 'Bethnal Green' (is that where Doveton Street was?) would have been CAL's 'hot zone'.

One would expect attacks around Bethnal Green. North, South, East and West of it.

Not just en route to work.

If you consider the fact that CAL may have had little or no familiarity with the Doveton Street area at the time the WM started, the whole basis for Batman's argument crumbles into dust.

Gary

Yes, Gary, I am very much aware of that, which was why I said that if anything, any activity on his behalf originating from 22 Doveton Street would have had a likely spreading area to the southwest - where the murders occurred.

Some little knowledge about the surrounding timings and circumstances never hurt anyone, and once you lack to some degree in that department, it will show.

And who am I to stop anyone who criticizes the idea of Charles Lechmere as the killer by putting such lacking knowledge on display? Bring it on, I say!

[Fisherman]

Doveton Street was in Mile End Old Town.

In any case, have you ever looked at a parish map of Bethnal Green? Do you think it fits into a perfect circle?

But let’s not dwell on such insignificant facts when discussing ‘geographical’ profiling and instead concentrate on the fact that Lechmere had only recently moved to Doveton Street when the murders began.

Is length of residence factored into your model?

Here´s a link to an 1884 parish map of London:

https://www.oldtowns-maps.co.uk/products/map-of-the-london-parishes-districts-and-extra-parochial-places-by-e-stanford-1884

I don´t think that stepping over a parish border has ever stopped a serial killer from murdering. You can take two steps to your right and kill and afterwards discover that you crossed a parish line in doing so. They are not painted on the street surface, let alone high, impenetrable walls.
Surely the only important factor is what area a suspect is proven to have moved in, and not what parish that area belonged to? And in that context, Gareths and Batmans misgivings about how any perpetrator could possibly reside in one parish and kill in another become the stuff of comedy.

Thanks for putting the thread back on track!

[Herlock Sholmes]

I was replying to Fisherman Herlock. I have no problem with you whatsoever. Sorry if I have given you the impression I do.

No problem John

[Fisherman]

etenguy: But there are many who pass through Whitechapel on route to the city, quite legitimately.

A few objections here:

On the murder night, all actors of the drama, police, witnesses and people living in the area all bore witness to how the streets were empty and quiet. Lechmere saw noone after leaving Doveton Street, Paul saw noone, Neil saw noone... So based on that, we may need to accept that there were no hoards of people swarming the streets. Basically, that matters little when it comes to looking for a killer: it would suffice if ONE unknown man was there to allow for the idea of another killer than Lechmere. However, I think it is of the essence to lay down that at the time of the morning we are speaking of, the fewest people were out and about.
Let´s also look at how there were murder victims in the NORTH of the area Lechmere would have passed by, as well as in the SOUTH. Now, not very many people would have lived in the East, passed through Spitalfields and have had the choice to walk the Hanbury Street route OR the Old Montague Street route and still have had the same distance to work! Lechmere had this option, however. And that reduces the base of people even further, if we are to accept that the killer traversed Spitalfields from the east to the west.

What brings Lechmere into focus is that he found the body.

Yes, that is ONE of the matters that bring him into focus. But keep in mind it is not only the so called finding of the body (I prefer to speak about being found by the body, since that takes away the option of Lechmere being allowed to lie to us) that counts here, but also that he was there at a time that is entirely consistent with him being the killer! John Davis found Chapman, but she was long dead by then, so finding a body can be very inconspicious - and it can be in line with being the killer.
But there are many other factors that also make him a very interesting suspect. The fewest witnesses serve up alternative versions about what was said between them and the police, for instance. The fewest leave the names they normally use in authority contacts out when dealing with the police and an inquest. For example. And there is more.

That is what distinguishes him from all the others who would by your argument be, geographically speaking, the best suspect if they had found the body.

That is one of the things that make him stand out, geographically. The other thing is that he is tied to the Spitalfields area where four out of six murders went down, as well as he has ties to the two other murder areas too. And there is not a soul who can match that combination, as far as we know of. Not nearly so. Ergo, he is and remains by far the best suspect there is, geographically speaking. If you have a competitor, then name him. Asserting me that there surely must be many such men is not going to cut the mustard. You will find it hard to find somebody with ties to Spitalfields, St Georges and the Mitre Square area, and if you DO, you will be asked to put him or her on a murder spot at a remove in time that is consiostent with him or her being the killer. That is a lost cause, as you will no doubt realize.
Does it rule out other killers? No, it does not. But it rules out any competition for the crown of the best geographical suspect.

If Paul had been ten minutes ahead of Lechmere, he might be in your number one slot.

No, he would not. And for two reasons:

1. It takes a lot more than finding a murder victim to become a suspect.
2. Nichols would arguably not have been there if Paul was ten minutes ahead of Lechmere.

[MrBarnett]

Here´s a link to an 1884 parish map of London:

https://www.oldtowns-maps.co.uk/products/map-of-the-london-parishes-districts-and-extra-parochial-places-by-e-stanford-1884

I don´t think that stepping over a parish border has ever stopped a serial killer from murdering. You can take two steps to your right and kill and afterwards discover that you crossed a parish line in doing so. They are not painted on the street surface, let alone high, impenetrable walls.
Surely the only important factor is what area a suspect is proven to have moved in, and not what parish that area belonged to? And in that context, Gareths and Batmans misgivings about how any perpetrator could possibly reside in one parish and kill in another become the stuff of comedy.

Thanks for putting the thread back on track!

I’ve taken Batman’s advice and read Michael Connor’s dissertation. I learnt so much in doing so:


Little is known of Charles Cross apart from the fact that he was the man Robert Paul found by the body of Polly Nichols.

[John G]

In answer to the question, of course someone residing in Doveton Street could have been the murderer. As I've pointed out before, Lechmere's residence was only around a mile from all of the C5 sites.

However, let's consider Jack Random from Flower and Dean Street. He's just 0.6 miles walking distance from Mitre Square, if he goes via Wentworth Street-the GSG was found on the corner of Wentworth Street and Goulston Street; 0.6 miles from Durward Street; 0.4 miles from Hanbury Street; 0.5 miles from Henriques Street; and a mere 0.2 miles from Whites Row.

He is therefore within about half a mile of all the murder sites. Moreover, if you take into account other factors, such as work address, former work addresses, former residences, girlfriend's addresses, former girlfriends' addresses, etc, you will no doubt be able to discover even closer connections.

On that basis, what makes Jack Random less likely to be the killer than Lechmere, particularly as there is no substantive evidence linking Lechmere to any murder.

Thus, there is no forensic evidence, such as signs of blood on his person, or being discovered with a blood stained knife. No evidence that he was a violent character. No confession. No witnesses observing him commit a murder, or flee a murder scene.

All there is, from a substantive perspective, is the fact that he found a body close to the time when a murder took place. Well, someone had to find the body. And both Louis D and PC Thompson discovered the body of murder victims shortly after the murder took place. Does that make them prime suspects?

[Fisherman]

I’ve taken Batman’s advice and read Michael Connor’s dissertation. I learnt so much in doing so:


Little is known of Charles Cross apart from the fact that he was the man Robert Paul found by the body of Polly Nichols.

Yeah, well - Connor is one of them Lechmere zealots, Gary, so he was bound to get that wrong...