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So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel?

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  • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
    So why did you choose to emphasise that he had used the route umpteen times? I think that qualifies as a half-truth. Have I posted any half-truths?
    "Umpteen" is an indefinite number. I didn't know how many times Lechmere took that route but it had to be regularly. It wasn't his first day, week or month.

    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
    Surely speculation is a valid element of the investigative process. Without it, Ripperology wouldn't exist.
    Speculation can be easily manipulated into "fact". That's the problem.

    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
    According to you, 'anyone' could be turned into a suspect. Perhaps you should take up Fish's challenge.
    It's been done already, MrB:

    https://www.casebook.org/suspects

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Harry D View Post
      "Umpteen" is an indefinite number. I didn't know how many times Lechmere took that route but it had to be regularly. It wasn't his first day, week or month.



      Speculation can be easily manipulated into "fact". That's the problem.



      It's been done already, MrB:

      https://www.casebook.org/suspects
      If we include Tabram in the tally, then it isn't even two months and it's quite conceivable that it took him a while to get his bearings and perfect his route.

      In your dictionary, is umpteen defined as any indefinite number, from 1 to infinity? That's not how I use it or have seen it used by others. I've always thought it meant an extremely large indefinite number. In this case, you applied it to a number between 1 and 45 (approx).

      Yes, there have been numerous suspects put forward, but they're a drop in the ocean compared to the number of adult males who would have had easy access to the East End in 1888. You claim that any of them could be made into a suspect, and presumably by that you mean one who would stand comparison with Lechmere.

      Why not have a go, then? Stick a pin in the GYB list or Gareth's list of infirmary loonies and turn him into JTR. Or continue with Crow.

      I'm not saying it couldn't be done. If you pick the right person, it might be an interesting exercise. I'd be more than happy to help, and perhaps contrary to appeances I'm not a confirmed Lechmerian, so I would do my utmost to support your chosen suspect's candidacy.
      Last edited by MrBarnett; 11-17-2018, 06:03 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
        So why did you choose to emphasise that he had used the route umpteen times? I think that qualifies as a half-truth. Have I posted any half-truths?

        Surely speculation is a valid element of the investigative process. Without it, Ripperology wouldn't exist.

        According to you, 'anyone' could be turned into a suspect. Perhaps you should take up Fish's challenge.

        This might be useful:


        "I put these lists together some time ago. They are derived from the electoral registers, so they obviously aren't a complete record of all the residents of George Yard Buildings, but they may be of interest.


        George Yard Buildings
        Electoral Registers

        1888

        36, Richard Brown
        1, John Bryan
        19, John Casey
        27, William Chapman
        13, William Garbutt
        24, Joseph Gladman
        33, Robert Hall
        18, Thomas Hark
        28, John Harris
        5, George Harrison
        45, John Hayes
        14, Francis Hewitt
        9, Francis Fisher Hewitt
        29, Francis Hewitt jun
        29, George Howell
        22, Charles Humphries
        15, John Johnson
        32, Daniel Killinbeck
        42, William Lacey
        47, Patrick McNeil
        46, Thomas Madden
        24, Thomas Melville
        40, John Reeves
        16, Henry Ritson
        25, James Sheelan
        41, William Shore
        43, William Sillitoe
        25, James Speelan
        2, William Steele
        21, Henry Tempest
        33, Richard Thall
        7, William Winstan
        31, William Winter


        1889

        29, John Baker
        4, George Barber
        36, Richard Brown
        19, John Casey
        12, Henry Cooper
        35, George Crow
        33, Robert Hall
        6, Francis Hewitt
        9, Francis Hewitt
        29, Frank Hewitt Jnr
        28, Thomas Hughes
        21, William Humphreys
        14, George Humphreys
        26, Richard Kenrich
        32, David Killinbeck
        48, William Lacey
        46, Thomas Madden
        47 & 48, Joseph Marney
        24, Matthew Melville
        29, John Mitten
        37, John Reeves
        27, Edward Rice
        16, Henry Ritson
        2, William Steele
        1, Walter Tempest
        45, John Watkins
        7, William Winstan
        31, William Winter

        E & O E "
        harry if I were you id start with crow. lol
        "Is all that we see or seem
        but a dream within a dream?"

        -Edgar Allan Poe


        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

        -Frederick G. Abberline

        Comment


        • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
          If we include Tabram in the tally, then it isn't even two months and it's quite conceivable that it took him a while to get his bearings and perfect his route.
          ...or perhaps a likelier answer is that the murder overlapped with the route of a random carman. Sorry, two random carmen.

          Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
          In your dictionary, is umpteen defined as any indefinite number, from 1 to infinity? That's not how I use it or have seen it used by others. I've always thought it meant an extremely large indefinite number. In this case, you applied it to a number between 1 and 45 (approx).
          Is pettifogging the usual practice for Lechmere apologia?

          Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
          Yes, there have been numerous suspects put forward, but they're a drop in the ocean compared to the number of adult males who would have had easy access to the East End in 1888. You claim that any of them could be made into a suspect, and presumably by that you mean one who would stand comparison with Lechmere.
          I'm willing to bet any number of those fellas had troubled upbringings, absent parents, diagnosed/undiagnosed mental problems, etc. We know this already from the small pool of suspects/witnesses etc. available to us.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Harry D View Post
            ...or perhaps a likelier answer is that the murder overlapped with the route of a random carman. Sorry, two random carmen.



            Is pettifogging the usual practice for Lechmere apologia?



            I'm willing to bet any number of those fellas had troubled upbringings, absent parents, diagnosed/undiagnosed mental problems, etc. We know this already from the small pool of suspects/witnesses etc. available to us.
            Pettifogging? You chose to use a word that totally misrepresented the known facts, presumably in order to bolster your argument - the very thing you accuse theorists of doing. More ‘pot-calling-kettle-black-challenging’ than ‘pettifogging’ I’d say. And I’m neither a Lechmere apologist nor a Lechmere denier.

            I’m sensing you’re not going to take up the challenge.

            At first glance Crow looks promising. Living in GYB in 1888; claiming to have passed a body on the landing; a connection to St George’s; an occupation that may have given him and intimate knowledge of the East End streets...

            Comment


            • The reason I brought up Crow was to illustrate a comparative model to Cross. In the end, Crow is just another casual witness to JtR's crimes and if investigators are to be given a smidgen of our benefit of the doubt that they have set of brains, then they would have checked the claim Crow made that this particular spot is too dark to see details with someone lying there.

              If not journalists looking to poke holes in a story.
              Bona fide canonical and then some.

              Comment


              • This "route to work" and "lives in the district "argument is/are not really good.If Lechmere walked to work 5 days a week or more through the district,that's about 20 days a month and he found victims only at the end of the month and 8-9 - August 31,September 8,September 30,November 8-9 (8 if Blotchy,which to me was).The odds are about 30-2 or about 20-2 (minus weekends).I do not believe it,everyday there must have been streetwalkers..Stride,Eddowes.Cox and Kelly did not "care" there was a killer roaming about.It's overwhelming the killer was a visitor to the district,comes at the end of the month until or and at about the end of first week 8-9,leaves the district and comes back again at the end of the month.It left most undercover cops/most patrols/dossers/rumors/house-to-house search negligible.Tabram at 7 of August could have been a victim.

                -----
                Last edited by Varqm; 11-17-2018, 11:36 AM.
                Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
                M. Pacana

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                  ...or perhaps a likelier answer is that the murder overlapped with the route of a random carman. Sorry, two random carmen.



                  Is pettifogging the usual practice for Lechmere apologia?



                  I'm willing to bet any number of those fellas had troubled upbringings, absent parents, diagnosed/undiagnosed mental problems, etc. We know this already from the small pool of suspects/witnesses etc. available to us.
                  pettifogging LOL great word. now stop being such a nocfollius tumbletwat.
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Varqm View Post
                    I do not believe it,everyday there must have been streetwalkers..Stride,Eddowes.Cox and Kelly did not "care" there was a killer roaming about.It's overwhelming the killer was a visitor to the district,comes at the end of the month until or and at about the end of first week 8-9,leaves the district and comes back again at the end of the month.
                    -----
                    I am not sure it is fair to say the victims did not care there was a murderer about - though the use of quotes maybe suggests you think they were forced onto the streets regardless. My own theory is that the murderer was a regular user of prostitutes or someone well known in the area. Someone who the women trusted, or at least did not fear.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by etenguy View Post
                      I am not sure it is fair to say the victims did not care there was a murderer about - though the use of quotes maybe suggests you think they were forced onto the streets regardless. My own theory is that the murderer was a regular user of prostitutes or someone well known in the area. Someone who the women trusted, or at least did not fear.
                      I find it almost baffling that neither investigators nor the press, actually suggested that JtR was probably one of their clients, until after Mary Jane Kelly.

                      There were street gangs blamed.
                      There were soldiers blamed.
                      There was the killer butcher Jew, Leather Apron, Pizer, blamed.
                      Then was Dr. Jack the Ripper after Philips and the black bag man witnessed around Berner St.
                      Then horse-slaughter after Bond did the meta-analysis of the cases.

                      Finally Bond comes up with this profile and idea that JtR would probably seem quite normal and even friendly with the women he intended to hurt.

                      Also, it looked like MJK had taken a client back to her accommodation with her. So they figured out JtR probably wasn't looking like a ghoul.

                      I accept the press did indicate the women were taking these men to their own unforeseen doom, but did they really suggest it was a client they knew well? I think not.
                      Bona fide canonical and then some.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                        pettifogging LOL great word. now stop being such a nocfollius tumbletwat.
                        lol!

                        If they’re not real words, they should be.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Batman View Post
                          I find it almost baffling that neither investigators nor the press, actually suggested that JtR was probably one of their clients, until after Mary Jane Kelly.

                          There were street gangs blamed.
                          There were soldiers blamed.
                          There was the killer butcher Jew, Leather Apron, Pizer, blamed.
                          Then was Dr. Jack the Ripper after Philips and the black bag man witnessed around Berner St.
                          Then horse-slaughter after Bond did the meta-analysis of the cases.

                          Finally Bond comes up with this profile and idea that JtR would probably seem quite normal and even friendly with the women he intended to hurt.

                          Also, it looked like MJK had taken a client back to her accommodation with her. So they figured out JtR probably wasn't looking like a ghoul.

                          I accept the press did indicate the women were taking these men to their own unforeseen doom, but did they really suggest it was a client they knew well? I think not.
                          The soldiers in question were supposedly clients.

                          Can you explain your point about horse slaughterers? That’s an aspect of the case that I’m particularly interested in.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                            The soldiers in question were supposedly clients.

                            Can you explain your point about horse slaughterers? That’s an aspect of the case that I’m particularly interested in.
                            It is Bond dashing the idea that JtR was a medical person or showed any signs of medical experience. He said a horse slaughter could do it. I don't think he meant a horse slaughter was JtR but that JtR didn't need any medical experience to do what he did.
                            Bona fide canonical and then some.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Batman View Post
                              It is Bond dashing the idea that JtR was a medical person or showed any signs of medical experience. He said a horse slaughter could do it. I don't think he meant a horse slaughter was JtR but that JtR didn't need any medical experience to do what he did.
                              I thought Bond’s opinion was that the killer didn’t even possess the technical knowledge of a horse slaughterer or a butcher.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                                now stop being such a nocfollius tumbletwat.
                                Tumbletwat... the most incompetent Ripper suspect of them all.
                                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                                Comment

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