So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel?

[Harry D]

MJ Trow already stepped up to the plate with his "suspect" Frederick Nicholas Charrington:

https://www.casebook.org/ripper_media/book_reviews/non-fiction/cjmorley/35.html

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn: What's the 1873 victim got to do with it?

That´s for me to know and for you to find out, Gareth. And I was encouraging Harry D to step forward and come good on his suggestion, not you. But anybody who does so, should be aware that a very good case can be made for the 1873 torso belonging to the tally of the man who killed Kelly.

Your opinion that the torso murderer (singular) was responsible for all the torso cases and the Ripper murders is entirely speculative and, if wrong - which it certainly is - it can only lead us to include some unworthy suspects and reject stronger ones. That's bad form, so let's keep the focus on what we know about the Ripper murders alone, shall we?

No, Gareth, we shall not. If you want to do so, then go ahead. I make my own choices, though. The reason we tie the Ripper cases together is the same as why I tie the Torso and the Ripper cases together: inherent similarities of which I have not disclosed all.

Plucking strawman suspects out of the (vanishingly small) group of known individuals connected with the case isn't a particularly useful thing to do, unless your intention is to underline how weak most of your arguments against Cross really are.

Don´t speak of what you do not understand, Gareth. A poster who claims that it is a factual thing that the Ripper and the Torso uterus removal, heart removal and abdominal flap removal was made differently and for different reasons needs to check his own level of veracity before criticizing others. You may feel that you must be right, but the sensible thing to do is to revisit the evidence and see what factual grounds exist for making that call. The answer is an easy one - there are no such grounds. What we have is you wildly exaggerating some elements ("It is a near certainty that the Torso man lived in the west" - as if there was no such things as commuter killers, and foremost dumpers!) and trying to take away from others ("The Torso man took away the abdominal flaps from Jackson because he wanted to facilitate taking out the uterus and the foetus, plus these flaps looked entirely different from those in the Kelly and Chapman cases").
These are free fantasies only, and you will have that pointed out to you whenever you bring them up as factual matters.
ALL we know is that these women had their uteri taken, and they may have had that done to them for the exact same reason, which - given the scarcity of this kind of killer - is the more logical guess.
The same goes for the hearts and the flaps.

Are we agreed on that? That you are making up things, and that the basic facts cannot allow for it? That it is mere speculation and conjecture on your part? Yes?

[Sam Flynn]

Come on now, Harry, don´t be shy - you´ve been handed a very useful candidate to turn into a suspect. Lawende was born in 1847, so he covers the 1873 victim

What's the 1873 victim got to do with it? Your opinion that the torso murderer (singular) was responsible for all the torso cases and the Ripper murders is entirely speculative and, if wrong - which it certainly is - it can only lead us to include some unworthy suspects and reject stronger ones. That's bad form, so let's keep the focus on what we know about the Ripper murders alone, shall we?

he was known to frequent the murder area, he lived in Dalston, two or three miles north of the killing fields and he was involved in another murder case as a witness back in 1876, so he is linked to at least two murders, and he was in the habit of dining in Great Alie Street in the seventies, a habit he may have carried into the eighties too.

Surely that makes a good ground for creating as good a suspect as Lechmere? If you put your mind to it? You can even turn speculation into fact, if you wish, but of course, you will run the risk of being revealed for it.

And hey, Lawende was a foreigner of Polish extraction. Didn´t Mrs Long say that her man was around 40 (Lawende was 41) and gave a foreign impression?

Maybe it´s time to come good on your suggestion?

Plucking strawman suspects out of the (vanishingly small) group of known individuals connected with the case isn't a particularly useful thing to do, unless your intention is to underline how weak most of your arguments against Cross really are.

[Fisherman]

Speculation can be easily manipulated into "fact". That's the problem.

It's been done already, MrB:

https://www.casebook.org/suspects

Come on now, Harry, don´t be shy - you´ve been handed a very useful candidate to turn into a suspect. Lawende was born in 1847, so he covers the 1873 victim, he was known to frequent the murder area, he lived in Dalston, two or three miles north of the killing fields and he was involved in another murder case as a witness back in 1876, so he is linked to at least two murders, and he was in the habit of dining in Great Alie Street in the seventies, a habit he may have carried into the eighties too.

Surely that makes a good ground for creating as good a suspect as Lechmere? If you put your mind to it? You can even turn speculation into fact, if you wish, but of course, you will run the risk of being revealed for it.

And hey, Lawende was a foreigner of Polish extraction. Didn´t Mrs Long say that her man was around 40 (Lawende was 41) and gave a foreign impression?

Maybe it´s time to come good on your suggestion?

[MrBarnett]

Thanks Gary,

Not to say they are suspects or even the same people, but, in your 1889 census the names George Barber and Frank Hewitt Jr are interesting. The ‘Reverand’ George Veck of Cleveland Street Scandal fame went by the alias of George Barber. His 17 year old lover was Frank Hewitt who also used the alias of George Barber. It was Hewitt that introduced Henry Newlove to the house on Cleveland Street. Maybe this is the connection I’ve been looking for to link Conway Jr as a recruiter to the house also? Looks like a nice a avenue to pursue.

Glad to have been of assistance, Jerry.

[jerryd]

I'm not saying it couldn't be done. If you pick the right person, it might be an interesting exercise. I'd be more than happy to help, and perhaps contrary to appeances I'm not a confirmed Lechmerian, so I would do my utmost to support your chosen suspect's candidacy.

Thanks Gary,

Not to say they are suspects or even the same people, but, in your 1889 census the names George Barber and Frank Hewitt Jr are interesting. The ‘Reverand’ George Veck of Cleveland Street Scandal fame went by the alias of George Barber. His 17 year old lover was Frank Hewitt who also used the alias of George Barber. It was Hewitt that introduced Henry Newlove to the house on Cleveland Street. Maybe this is the connection I’ve been looking for to link Conway Jr as a recruiter to the house also? Looks like a nice a avenue to pursue.

[Batman]

I thought Bond’s opinion was that the killer didn’t even possess the technical knowledge of a horse slaughterer or a butcher.

Actually, you are right. He even ruled out a horse slaughterer, butcher or anyone with any anatomical experience at all.

[harry]

Fisherman,in reply to your post 572.
Nothing about Griffiths nags me.It was not me but you that introduced his name and accomplishments.You do not like my reply,then simply do not use his name.It's as simple as that.As for smearing anyones reputation,I am way behind you in that department.You quote a profile of a person that includes innacuraces,then be prepared for a correction.We are asked too many times here to accept the words of persons not posting.If those persons no not like the responses,then let them take offense at the introducer,or better still,come on the boards and explain themselves.

[Sam Flynn]

now stop being such a nocfollius tumbletwat.

Tumbletwat... the most incompetent Ripper suspect of them all.

[MrBarnett]

It is Bond dashing the idea that JtR was a medical person or showed any signs of medical experience. He said a horse slaughter could do it. I don't think he meant a horse slaughter was JtR but that JtR didn't need any medical experience to do what he did.

I thought Bond’s opinion was that the killer didn’t even possess the technical knowledge of a horse slaughterer or a butcher.

[Batman]

The soldiers in question were supposedly clients.

Can you explain your point about horse slaughterers? That’s an aspect of the case that I’m particularly interested in.

It is Bond dashing the idea that JtR was a medical person or showed any signs of medical experience. He said a horse slaughter could do it. I don't think he meant a horse slaughter was JtR but that JtR didn't need any medical experience to do what he did.

[MrBarnett]

I find it almost baffling that neither investigators nor the press, actually suggested that JtR was probably one of their clients, until after Mary Jane Kelly.

There were street gangs blamed.
There were soldiers blamed.
There was the killer butcher Jew, Leather Apron, Pizer, blamed.
Then was Dr. Jack the Ripper after Philips and the black bag man witnessed around Berner St.
Then horse-slaughter after Bond did the meta-analysis of the cases.

Finally Bond comes up with this profile and idea that JtR would probably seem quite normal and even friendly with the women he intended to hurt.

Also, it looked like MJK had taken a client back to her accommodation with her. So they figured out JtR probably wasn't looking like a ghoul.

I accept the press did indicate the women were taking these men to their own unforeseen doom, but did they really suggest it was a client they knew well? I think not.

The soldiers in question were supposedly clients.

Can you explain your point about horse slaughterers? That’s an aspect of the case that I’m particularly interested in.

[MrBarnett]

pettifogging LOL great word. now stop being such a nocfollius tumbletwat.

lol!

If they’re not real words, they should be.

[Batman]

I am not sure it is fair to say the victims did not care there was a murderer about - though the use of quotes maybe suggests you think they were forced onto the streets regardless. My own theory is that the murderer was a regular user of prostitutes or someone well known in the area. Someone who the women trusted, or at least did not fear.

I find it almost baffling that neither investigators nor the press, actually suggested that JtR was probably one of their clients, until after Mary Jane Kelly.

There were street gangs blamed.
There were soldiers blamed.
There was the killer butcher Jew, Leather Apron, Pizer, blamed.
Then was Dr. Jack the Ripper after Philips and the black bag man witnessed around Berner St.
Then horse-slaughter after Bond did the meta-analysis of the cases.

Finally Bond comes up with this profile and idea that JtR would probably seem quite normal and even friendly with the women he intended to hurt.

Also, it looked like MJK had taken a client back to her accommodation with her. So they figured out JtR probably wasn't looking like a ghoul.

I accept the press did indicate the women were taking these men to their own unforeseen doom, but did they really suggest it was a client they knew well? I think not.

[etenguy]

I do not believe it,everyday there must have been streetwalkers..Stride,Eddowes.Cox and Kelly did not "care" there was a killer roaming about.It's overwhelming the killer was a visitor to the district,comes at the end of the month until or and at about the end of first week 8-9,leaves the district and comes back again at the end of the month.
-----

I am not sure it is fair to say the victims did not care there was a murderer about - though the use of quotes maybe suggests you think they were forced onto the streets regardless. My own theory is that the murderer was a regular user of prostitutes or someone well known in the area. Someone who the women trusted, or at least did not fear.