Deadly occupations and serial murder

[hill806]

Just a thought

IF it could be proven that Lichmere did deliver meat, cat meat especially, MAYBE he could have made deliveries to 29 Hanbury street. After all, the front room of 29 was apparently used as a shop where they sold cat's meat. This way he could have gained knowledge of the dwelling, the people that came and went, the doors that were unable to be locked, etc He was also about 39 to 40 at the time of the murders I believe and Liz Long said she saw someone around 40 years of age with the deceased. Of course she also said someone dark (foreign potentially) which could render Lechmere not the suspect seen with her, unless she was mistaken on that point. I have to say anyway I did enjoy the missing evidence documentary. The 1 thing that made me most curious about Lichmere when watching it was the issue with the blood and the apparent amount of time spent alone with the body. Did Paul not see the blood due to there not being enough light? Maybe PC John Neil only saw it thanks to his torch. If that was the case then MAYBE the blood was actually present when Paul was there. Also regarding Lichmere giving the name Cross, maybe that was due to his step father Thomas Cross being a constable. Did he think having a stepfather who was a constable will gain him favor with Mizen? Im no heavyweight expert like most people on here unfortunately and there's alot of "if's" and "maybe's" in these sentences, however I just figured it would be OK to share the idea's anyway.

[Henry Flower]

... "Finding FedEx"

I'd watch that!

Or how about....

Slice Road Truckers ?

[drstrange169]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e1xvyTdBZI

[Pcdunn]

Idea for a paranormal show title....

Ha! Phantom killers, spectral local delivery men, what the heck....

... "Finding FedEx"

Seriously, I think the correlations between OTR (over-the-road) truck drivers and London carmen are not there, and neither are the characteristics which are supposedly showed: Lechmere did not work at night (at least, he wasn't at the time of the Nichols murder), but apparently in the early morning. As a driver, he wasn't alone for long stretches of time, because apparently one or more assistants rode in the cart to unload the cargo. As far as being exposed to prostitution -- well, that was normal for any East Ender of the time and place.

[Henry Flower]

Hi Henry,

I can't help seeing the funny side of being on a thread where someone has just asked if someone else will admit to the existence of local delivery men. Those elusive, enigmatic, ghostly figures haunting the highways and byways of our towns and cities! You'll be suggesting that Postmen exist next!

Ha! Phantom killers, spectral local delivery men, what the heck....

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just to clarify, I didn't state that this thread was "bound to go nowhere" just because it's Fisherman and it's Lechmere and everyone here has some clear anti-Lechmere agenda.

I said that it was bound to go nowhere because Lechmere was not the equivalent of a long distance lorry driver. There was no equivalent really. He was a local delivery man who went home to his family after work. There is no known correlation between local delivery men and serial killing, neither then nor now, as far as I've ever heard. Neither was Lechmere involved in butchery, any more than a newspaper boy is involved in journalism.

And if these very real distinctions were clear to me, with my weak eyesight and pornography-rotted faculties, then they were evidently going to be clear to the far cleverer, healthier, wiser chaps and ladies on the boards.

Hence, this thread was never gong to go anywhere.

And it's no good now trying to claim that it could have led to an interesting discussion regardless of the whole Lechmere angle: your first post was quite clearly written to propose an 'involvement' between Lechmere and 'the only two professions to have a known link to serial killing'.

Incidentally, have I missed it or has Christer acknowledged yet that local delivery men still exist, are a profession distinct from long-haul truckers, and have no recognized correlation with serial murderers?

Hi Henry,

I can't help seeing the funny side of being on a thread where someone has just asked if someone else will admit to the existence of local delivery men. Those elusive, enigmatic, ghostly figures haunting the highways and byways of our towns and cities! You'll be suggesting that Postmen exist next!

[Henry Flower]

Just to clarify, I didn't state that this thread was "bound to go nowhere" just because it's Fisherman and it's Lechmere and everyone here has some clear anti-Lechmere agenda.

I said that it was bound to go nowhere because Lechmere was not the equivalent of a long distance lorry driver. There was no equivalent really. He was a local delivery man who went home to his family after work. There is no known correlation between local delivery men and serial killing, neither then nor now, as far as I've ever heard. Neither was Lechmere involved in butchery, any more than a newspaper boy is involved in journalism.

And if these very real distinctions were clear to me, with my weak eyesight and pornography-rotted faculties, then they were evidently going to be clear to the far cleverer, healthier, wiser chaps and ladies on the boards.

Hence, this thread was never gong to go anywhere.

And it's no good now trying to claim that it could have led to an interesting discussion regardless of the whole Lechmere angle: your first post was quite clearly written to propose an 'involvement' between Lechmere and 'the only two professions to have a known link to serial killing'.

Incidentally, have I missed it or has Christer acknowledged yet that local delivery men still exist, are a profession distinct from long-haul truckers, and have no recognized correlation with serial murderers?

[Sam Flynn]

A more viable explanation is that individuals pre-disposed to become serial killers are more likely to be drawn to that type of work, I.e. because of the opportunities it brings.

Indeed, although that doesn't seem to have inspired Bundy, Rader (etc) to become long-haul truckers. They got along perfectly well on their own two feet, or four wheels as the case may be

[John G]

Of course, one doesn't have to belong to any kind of transport/delivery industry. There are many serial killers, covering a wide range of professions, who relied on vehicles in order to pick up and/or dispose of their victims - Bundy, Rader, Fred West, Bittaker/Norris, von Einem, Ridgway, Bianchi, Shawcross... the list goes on. All heavily used vehicles in the commission of their crimes, but none of them were professional truckers.

Perhaps it's simply "mobility" that's the key, rather than the nature of the killers' jobs themselves.

Yes, regarding long distance lorry drivers, for example. I seriously doubt there's anything inherent in the profession that's apt to transform an erstwhile perfectly balanced individual into a maniacal serial killer.

A more viable explanation is that individuals pre-disposed to become serial killers are more likely to be drawn to that type of work, I.e. because of the opportunities it brings.

[Sam Flynn]

I don't know how I managed to post the same message twice!

Relax, Herlock; it's a Lechmere thread. You'll probably find yourself posting something similar again in a few years' time

[Herlock Sholmes]

Sorry guys.

I don't know how I managed to post the same message twice!

Regards

Herlock

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Fisherman

My main issue with the link between the two occupations mentioned and serial killers is a like the 'chicken and egg' scenario. I was concerned that it may have been suggested or hinted at that someone in those professions was more likely to 'become' a murderer. Whereas I would say that someone would already have that propensity and becoming a long distance lorry driver, like Sutcliffe, would help facilitate his need. As it doesn't appear to be suggested that CL killed whilst actually working I couldn't and still can't see a connection. Just the fact of being a Carman wouldn't influence CL.
As for being a butcher, yes I can perhaps see that cutting up meat could help an already 'unhinged' person to become desensitised to the task. Perhaps even more so for abattoir workers and Slaughtermen. Personally I've always wondered how trainee Surgeons deal with making those first cuts. That said, I think it's only reasonable to mention that CL wasn't a butcher. Yes he may have handled meat but most of us do at some point. You could say that we are all desensitised as we don't see the fluffy lamb in the field as we pop the joint in the oven.
It was an interesting point Fish but I don't think it was relevant to CL. And yes I'll hold my hand up to being sarcastic (it's habit that you might have noticed before )

Finally Fish, you mentioned 'bad blood.' You didn't single anyone out so I'm not descending into paranoia here. It's strange that a subject from so long ago still causes such passionate debate. It's easy to get frustrated and annoyed and some of us are, perhaps more inclined to do so. Perhaps some of us need to take more of a deep breath now and again? Perhaps some of us need to remember that the identity of Jack the Ripper isn't a matter of life and death. And yes, the 'us' definately includes myself.
For the record Fish I'd like to say that while it may sometimes appear to be, nothing said here by me is personal. If I sometimes, at my most strident and sarcastic, come over in that way I apologise. I have no problem saying that you are an intelligent man who has done excellent research. I also want to say that I do not doubt your honesty. You obviously genuinely feel that CL is the likeliest ripper. I just believe that you are mistaken (as you believe that I am.)

I hope that you enjoy your break Fish. I'll just stay here and argue with myself

Regards

Herlock

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Fisherman

My main issue with the link between the two occupations mentioned and serial killers is like the 'chicken and egg' scenario. I was concerned that it may have been suggested or hinted at that someone in those professions was more likely to 'become' a murderer. Whereas I would say that someone would already have that propensity and becoming a long distance lorry driver, like Sutcliffe, would help facilitate his need. As it doesn't appear to be suggested that CL killed whilst actually working I couldn't and still can't see a connection. Just the fact of being a Carman wouldn't influence CL.
As for being a butcher, yes I can perhaps see that cutting up meat could help an already 'unhinged' person to become desensitised to the task. Perhaps even more so for abattoir workers and Slaughtermen. Personally I've always wondered how trainee Surgeons deal with making those first cuts. That said, I think it's only reasonable to mention that CL wasn't a butcher. Yes he may have handled meat but most of us do at some point. You could say that we are all desensitised as we don't see the fluffy lamb in the field as we pop the joint in the oven.
It was an interesting point Fish but I don't think it was relevant to CL. And yes I'll hold my hand up to being sarcastic (it's habit that you might have noticed before )

Finally Fish, you mentioned 'bad blood.' You didn't single anyone out so I'm not descending into paranoia here. It's strange that a subject from so long ago still causes such passionate debate. It's easy to get frustrated and annoyed and some of us are, perhaps more inclined to do so. Perhaps some of us need to take more of a deep breath now and again? Perhaps some of us need to remember that the identity of Jack the Ripper isn't a matter of life and death. And yes, the 'us' definately includes myself.
For the record Fish I'd like to say that while it may sometimes appear to be, nothing said here by me is personal. If I sometimes, at my most strident and sarcastic, come over in that way I apologise. I have no problem saying that you are an intelligent man who has done excellent research. I also want to say that I do not doubt your honesty. You obviously genuinely feel that CL is the likeliest ripper. I just believe that you are mistaken (as you believe that I am.) I also appreciate that you are in a position a little like Davy Crockett at The Alamo, surrounded by people on this thread who disagree with your suspect. Like Crockett you certainly put up a good fight!

I hope that you enjoy your break Fish. I'll just stay here and argue with myself

Regards

Herlock

[Sam Flynn]

And the fact that they're both involved in the transport industry doesn't help, because it's too general an argument: an aeroplane pilot is involved in the transport industry but presumably, on that basis, not more likely to be a serial killer than the norm.

Of course, one doesn't have to belong to any kind of transport/delivery industry. There are many serial killers, covering a wide range of professions, who relied on vehicles in order to pick up and/or dispose of their victims - Bundy, Rader, Fred West, Bittaker/Norris, von Einem, Ridgway, Bianchi, Shawcross... the list goes on. All heavily used vehicles in the commission of their crimes, but none of them were professional truckers.

Perhaps it's simply "mobility" that's the key, rather than the nature of the killers' jobs themselves.

[Elamarna]

Hi Fish . You may not respond but just a few comments, none too critical

The mot glaring example may be Curious, who says that "Lechmere was NOT involved in either of what he calls the top two killing occupations -- not even marginally."
- he did not travel the streets and he was not exposed to prostitution in the same manner etctetera. Thses matters can of course be discussed ad nauseam, but it cannot be discussed that there is a link between carmen and truckers, that the two occupations are conneted.

It's is this point in particular that I at least and I guess other have an issue with.
I see the possible connection as being so tenuous that it just does not work. The supposed reasoning for the high number of trucker serial killers just does not apply to a local carman.
You disagree.

We also know that Lechmere in all probability carried meat from Broad Street to abbatoirs in london, so there is a tie between him ant that business. It is not saying that he did any butchery himself, or that he got so and so much blood on his cuffs - but it is saying that he had ties to the business.

Sorry that is surely a mistake. The meat he received on his cart had come from abbatoirs, why would he be then taking it back to them? For what possible reason?
Surely he is taking it from Broad street to end customers, be that institutions or individuals.

He may of course also have had ties to the catīs meat business in 1888. We know his family was deeply involved in it, and we know that his mother was listed as a horse flesh dealer in 1891, meaning that she may have held down the same work in 1888.

This is a far better avenue for a link; however as you rightly say we have no data showing a connection. It is without doubt an avenue which may produce results; but would require research.

But these are not proven matters! All we can say is that it seems clear that he had a tie to the abbtoirs by way of carrying meat for them.
To what degree this will have affected him or not is not the issue. The only issue is that the link is there, just as the link is there to the trucking business.

No where is the link to the abbatoirs? His link is to Pickfords, and it is they who had the link to the suppliers not he. He merely drove a cart carrying the meat which we are told would be wrapped and in boxes or baskets.

The last post I would like to comment on before leaving, is this post by John G:
"I think difficulties arise when you try and apply modern data to a nineteenth century problem. Thus, the issue shouldn't be whether the occupation of carman in the eighteenth century is analogous with that of a modern trucker-it clearly isn't; local delivery driver is a better comparator- but whether there's any evidence that nineteenth century carmen, or pony and cart drivers generally, such as Diemshutz, we're more likely to be serial killers."

It is an absolutely brilliant post and the one post that presents the matter in EXACTLY the way it should be presented - we have a link between trucking and serial murder and another one betwen abbatoirs and violent crime. We have a carman who is a Ripper suspect and who has links to the trucking business and the abbatoir business. But the businesses have changed over the years, so to what if any degree can these links be relevant when we look at the potential guilt of Charles Lechmere?

The only logical answer is: We donīt know. But it is interesting that these links exist.

Yes Johns post was very good indeed and allowed for the possibility of taking the debate further.

However while you rightly say we do not know the answer to John's question, you finish off by again stating these links exist which John has not agreed with. And which only you appear to feel are clear.

I am now withdrawing from this thread, and I think I will not be participating on Casebook for some time. I need some sort of detox, simple as.
Please do not take that as some sort of criticism - I simply feel that I need to do other things for a while.

I will probably take alook every now and then, not least on Steves work, but I will in all probability not comment and participate until further notice.

I am sorry that you feel that way, but we all need breaks at times so I can understand.
The next section of my work is unlikely to need much comment unless you spot factual mistakes. If so please feel free to point them out.
Hope you return for the final part later in the year.

All the best

Steve