Deadly occupations and serial murder

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Herlock Sholmes;424074]

He disagreed with Mizen....Why do we assume he lied? Why couldn't Mizen have lied? Or misheard?

He did contradict Mizen. And he did not give the name of his wife and children at the inquest.

Mizen was sworn.

Pierre

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Herlock Sholmes;424074]

He disagreed with Mizen....Why do we assume he lied? Why couldn't Mizen have lied? Or misheard? The non-existant Mizen Scam needs Paul to be in on it. To submissively stands aside to allow CL to spin his web of lies into Mizen's ear. A SuperCop who was more interested in knocking people up than doing his real job.

Hi Herlock,

There is a problem here. Robert Paul was not present at the inquest on the day when Mizen and Cross were testifying.

Pierre

[curious]

So driving a cart is irrevant to the murders. As I stated before carman went a to b pick up goods, waited while goods were put on cart. Carman were not removal men,that was a different job. Men would have loaded the cart, he might have had a list checking out the goods then dropped them off. Lateness or delay would mean a dock in pay. Back the the depot see to the horses. Where did the comical scene of Lechmere staggering under a weight of bloody meat come from. Nor did he drive his fast stallions around the country committing killings in far away counties for days at a time while on the job.

Miss Marple

I agree.

I believe Fisherman has seen a documentary that he likes and has decided he will connect to his theory.

There are no logical connections.

[Herlock Sholmes]

LOL

Of course, Lechmere doesn't appear to have even reached the depot, never mind got into his vehicle, before he killed! If he had access to transport, and ran errands all over London, any self-respecting SK would surely have exploited the opportunity. Yet we don't we see any Ripper-like murders at all beyond the narrow confines of the Canonical Five murder sites. My conclusion from this is that Jack the Ripper was a local killer, operating on foot; if he'd been involved in a "mobile" profession, he'd surely have left his mark over a much wider area.

hi Sam

Excellent point.

The whole transport thing is an irrelevance.

Regards

Herlock

[Herlock Sholmes]

So we have a man who works in a profession that answers to todays truckers and their exposure to prostitution and low-life characters and their propensity to become serial killing (drastically put, but you get my drift), a man who can have suffered desensitation from his connections to the butchery and meat trade, a man who had a reason to be on the streets at nights, a man who knew that a few decades ago, he would have been able to rise high above the scum and prostitution of the East End, a man who was found standing close to a freshly killed (yes!) and still bleeding murder victim in the Ripper series and a man who gave a name he was not registered by and one we have no other record of him ever having used oficially himself, plus a man who disagreed with a serving PC over what was said between them on the murder night, and where the PC claims that the carman presented him with a lie that seems tailormade to take him past the police unsearched.
He is also of an age that allows him to be the Torso killer (working from 1873 to 1889) and he has access to transportation by means of his work. And he has logical ties to each of the murder sites in the Ripper series.

But Bury is a better suspect. And Diemschitz, not least.

It is the upside down of logic, the world behind the mirror. And it is as infuriating as it is laughable.

You use the word 'propensity' meaning 'a natural inclination.' What percentage I wonder of truck drivers become serial killers? The only connection is in the way that individual long distance lorry drivers (who have an in-built propensity for violence against women in the first place) have a better opportunity to do so. It is not the case that normal people who become truck drivers suddenly have a higher chance of turning to serial murder. So even if you are saying that CL took to his job to facilitate his murderous appetites the comparison is futile as you are suggesting that he killed Polly Nichols before he even got to work.

A man can be desensitised to butchery by carrying meat around! Comment is superfluous on that point I think.

A man who had reason to be on the streets at night. I don't know about Sweden but we consider 3.40am to be the early morning. Yes he had reason to be on the streets. He had a job! Maybe others did too?

A man who knew that a few decades ago he would have been able to rise up above the scum..... Again, you are just making stuff up. You can't possibly know that he seethed with resentment. He seemed to get on with working all of his life and providing for his family pretty well.

The name thing.....You really should give this bit of desperate non-evidence up. He gained no advantage from it. A harmless white lie at worst.

He disagreed with Mizen....Why do we assume he lied? Why couldn't Mizen have lied? Or misheard? The non-existant Mizen Scam needs Paul to be in on it. To submissively stands aside to allow CL to spin his web of lies into Mizen's ear. A SuperCop who was more interested in knocking people up than doing his real job.

Torso killer.....I won't comment as I have looked into the case enough.

Access to transportation....The women were killed in a small area. Why would he need transport unless you are adding laziness to his catalogue of deficiencies.

Logical ties to the sites....Nonsense. So would thousands of others. Do you honestly think that he would think 'I'll just pop out to see Mum. I might even butcher a prostitute on the way!' Those alleged ties are utterly irrelevant.

But Bury is a better suspect....... weird eh? A proven murderer(that CL wasn't)that consorted with prostitutes(that CL didn't or at least we have no proof of it) who had access to the sites, lived locally and had his own cart!

You're right....it's infuriating and laughable that a person can fixate on a suspect that's not a suspect. That no one at the time suspected. That the police didn't suspect. That found a body, reported it to the police, then went to the Inquest and went on to live a normal life. Yet it's you who keeps getting stroppy when people disagree!

Herlock

[Sam Flynn]

I'd would suggest that the 21st century equivalent of a 19th century London Carman would be White Van Man. Maybe CL murderous exploits were down to road rage?

LOL

Of course, Lechmere doesn't appear to have even reached the depot, never mind got into his vehicle, before he killed! If he had access to transport, and ran errands all over London, any self-respecting SK would surely have exploited the opportunity. Yet we don't we see any Ripper-like murders at all beyond the narrow confines of the Canonical Five murder sites. My conclusion from this is that Jack the Ripper was a local killer, operating on foot; if he'd been involved in a "mobile" profession, he'd surely have left his mark over a much wider area.

[Sam Flynn]

As I read it (and maybe I was wrong) Christer could be saying that the same psychological conditions prevalent in long-haul truckers might also become prevalent in someone of Lechmere's profession... out late at night, in an unreal world peopled largely by the dregs of society, hauling bloodied sacks of meat around the east end

Did he work nights, though? I don't see that there'd have been much need for him, or his colleagues, to work overnight. Early starts, yes, but that's not quite the same thing.

Also, it still hasn't been proven that he regularly delivered meat, if at all. Even assuming he did, I doubt that it would have been in bloodied sacks; it's more likely that the animals had been slaughtered a few hours previously, so would have been well-drained, cut into joints, and possibly packed/boxed before the carmen came to pick up their consignments sometime later in the morning.

[Fisherman]

Not at all. It seems your history of the Trades Union Movement is somewhat limited.

The union which covered many would have been The Transport and General workers union in the Uk. It covered many occupations.

To suggest that somehow because truckers would be in the equivalent UK Trades Union it establishes a connect is highly misleading.
The divisions in unions in the USA and the UK was and is very different, with different backgrounds.

Steve

You are too fond of the phrase "misleading", Steve. And too little versed in what that means. To say that a bargeman is more connected to a trucker than a carman, now THAT is misleading. Both are related, but the bargeman less so.
Do you know what Pickfords do today, by the way? What the company developed into? Barging? Or lorry transportation?

Or did I mislead now?

[Fisherman]

curious: But is it more about the opportunities offered by the surroundings than about hauling goods -- or at least the long distances which allow for brooding and mulling?

Yes it is. The goods has nothing to do with it at all. The brooding time, however, may well have. And the exposure to prostitutes and hitchhikers and runaways etc. In that context, the trucker of today is more exposed than perhaps any other professional - which is perfectly in line with how they sometimes turn serialists.

Does trucking as a profession shape serialists or do serialists become truckers because of the opportunities? I believe that conundrum was discussed in the documentary.

I think both exist. There was that trucker who tried to distance himself by living way out in the woods and who turned himself in when the pressure got too strong - he seems to me to have been overpowered by the urge.

Isn't it the long distances that contribute to the brooding, which then contributes to the violent behavior? Since the mental condition of the killer seems shaped by the isolation, then it suggests to me that long distances are a necessary contributing factor.

I agree - to an extent. I donīt think they are necessary, but I do think that they will increase the problem.

You say: "I see it in how these men all drive their vehicles past prostitution, lowlife, scum and thieves, and how they all have a lot of time alone to brood over that clientele."

But did a carman really have have a lot of time to brood about the surroundings during a workday in London? Wasn't his vehicle an open-air vehicle? In London, would he not be concentrating on navigating through traffic and interacting with other drivers -- even when waiting for his wagon to be unloaded?

Eh - truckers also need to turn the wheel every now and then and avoid to run into others. If they brood at night, what is to say that Lechmere did not do the same? it is the exposure that is important, at least to my mind.

As for driving their vehicles past etc. . . . would not anyone who walked around in Whitechapel be exposed to all the same conditions? How would a carman be more isolated and have more time for brooding?

See my previous answer to Steve.

You say: "If you have seen the docu, you will also have noticed how not all truckers make use of their vehicles when engaging in criminality. Adam Leroy is mentioned in the docu, and he left his truck to look for open doors and windows where he could sneak in and abduct, rape or kill."

Yes, I mentioned that specifically and even threw in Tommy Lynn Sells as an example of a traveling, cross-country killer.

At this time, I don't see the correlation between a carman, who worked daily in London, and a truck driver.

I do, however. Very much so.

[Elamarna]

That is a bit evasive, though, is it not? I am saying that he would have been sorted in under the same flag as the teamsters if an American was to do the sorting, and that IS of interest because it would tell us that the jobs were related.

Not at all. It seems your history of the Trades Union Movement is somewhat limited.

The union which covered many would have been The Transport and General workers union in the Uk. It covered many occupations.

To suggest that somehow because truckers would be in the equivalent UK Trades Union it establishes a connect is highly misleading.
The divisions in unions in the USA and the UK was and is very different, with different backgrounds.

Steve

[miss marple]

Apart from the absurdity of the comparison, you might as well compare an airline pilot with the driver of a tram. I cannot see the relevance of any person involved in transportation, with Whitechapel murders as the women were murdered in the street by a man on foot, apart from MK who was probably murdered in her room by a man she met outside at night. All in a fairly small area. The easier thing in the world was to go to the pub, pick up a woman, go to the street pick up a woman.

So driving a cart is irrevant to the murders. As I stated before carman went a to b pick up goods, waited while goods were put on cart. Carman were not removal men,that was a different job. Men would have loaded the cart, he might have had a list checking out the goods then dropped them off. Lateness or delay would mean a dock in pay. Back the the depot see to the horses. Where did the comical scene of Lechmere staggering under a weight of bloody meat come from. Nor did he drive his fast stallions around the country committing killings in far away counties for days at a time while on the job.

Miss Marple

[Fisherman]

interesting-isn't that about the age studies have found serial killers get started?

So it is said, but I would not look upon it as definitive. Mary Bell was a lot younger, and there are a few serialists below twenty.

To me, the more important thing is that accepting that the 1873 victim was one of Jacks/The Torso killers, we can safely and finally rule out a lot of the suspects like Chapman, Bury, Kosminski etc.

[Fisherman]

It's not really about the countries involved,
Its about showing a modicum of respect to the innocent who suffered, not because of nationality but because of race and religion.

Steve

Iīm sure thatīs correct, and I will of course keep away from any such comparison in the future. And I beleive I have already apologized if anybody was offended. It is an easy thing to comply with - like not using the word tactics in our exchanges, for example.

That too is about showing respect.

[curious]

I see it in how these men all drive their vehicles past prostitution, lowlife, scum and thieves, and how they all have a lot of time alone to brood over that clientele.
If you have seen the docu, you will also have noticed how not all truckers make use of their vehicles when engaging in criminality. Adam Leroy is mentioned in the docu, and he left his truck to look for open doors and windows where he could sneak in and abduct, rape or kill.
Peter Sutcliffe was also a trucker, who did not use his truck in his criminal activities. William Bonin was another such man.
It is how trucking as a profession seems to shape serialists for some reason.

Whether barges or trains can be seen as closer comparisons in the respect of hauling goods long distances than carmens carts is of no consequence in this context, as far as I can tell - itīs more about the opportunities offered by the surroundings than about hauling goods.

But is it more about the opportunities offered by the surroundings than about hauling goods -- or at least the long distances which allow for brooding and mulling?

Does trucking as a profession shape serialists or do serialists become truckers because of the opportunities? I believe that conundrum was discussed in the documentary.

Isn't it the long distances that contribute to the brooding, which then contributes to the violent behavior? Since the mental condition of the killer seems shaped by the isolation, then it suggests to me that long distances are a necessary contributing factor.

You say: "I see it in how these men all drive their vehicles past prostitution, lowlife, scum and thieves, and how they all have a lot of time alone to brood over that clientele."

But did a carman really have have a lot of time to brood about the surroundings during a workday in London? Wasn't his vehicle an open-air vehicle? In London, would he not be concentrating on navigating through traffic and interacting with other drivers -- even when waiting for his wagon to be unloaded?

As for driving their vehicles past etc. . . . would not anyone who walked around in Whitechapel be exposed to all the same conditions? How would a carman be more isolated and have more time for brooding?

You say: "If you have seen the docu, you will also have noticed how not all truckers make use of their vehicles when engaging in criminality. Adam Leroy is mentioned in the docu, and he left his truck to look for open doors and windows where he could sneak in and abduct, rape or kill."

Yes, I mentioned that specifically and even threw in Tommy Lynn Sells as an example of a traveling, cross-country killer.

At this time, I don't see the correlation between a carman, who worked daily in London, and a truck driver.

curious

[Abby Normal]

He was around twentyfour, Abby.

interesting-isn't that about the age studies have found serial killers get started?