The Nature of Evidence

[Elamarna]

To me it is.
And you bring up another point that's odd to me. If it's a common going to work thing with these two, and any minor delay by lech, or conversely any early departure from Paul, and these two should have been accustomed to seeing each other.

Not nesicarilly Abby.

We don't know what time Paul normally left home or indeed his start time at work. Without that we have no idea how close their daily routes were to each other

It's perfectly possible that the never saw each other, at least not so they would recognise each other. It could be the most they ever saw of each other was a dark shape in the distance.

Steve

[caz]

And you bring up another point that's odd to me. If it's a common going to work thing with these two, and any minor delay by lech, or conversely any early departure from Paul, and these two should have been accustomed to seeing each other.

Hi Abby,

But the fact remains that Cross and Paul were both on their way to work, and there was nothing odd about that, nor about the time each one passed along Buck's Row.

If they had walked to work each day in opposite directions you'd have had more of a point, but walking in the same direction one would only have seen the back of the other in normal circumstances [even if one walked faster and overtook], and only then if they were mere seconds apart. More than half a minute between them and they may not have seen each other at all, unless - as was likely the case here - something caused the first man to stop en route, allowing the second man to catch up. If you only ever saw the back of someone in the dark, wearing dark clothing, walking ahead of you, would you necessarily recognise him as the same person if you suddenly met him face to face under what were unusual circumstances?

Love,

Caz
X

[John G]

To me it is.
And you bring up another point that's odd to me. If it's a common going to work thing with these two, and any minor delay by lech, or conversely any early departure from Paul, and these two should have been accustomed to seeing each other.

Yes, I thought that too, Abby. At the very least I think, on occasion, they would have been in close proximity to one another. However, I also sense that this was the sort of neighbourhood where commuters would have kept themselves to themselves, and would therefore have been wary of strangers, who they would have instinctively sought to avoid or to make eye contact with.

[caz]

Hi Caz,

When I was younger my friends and I used to play in the woods a mile or two from our village. One New Years Day when I was ten I went to the woods to play, and spied a car parked at the foot of the old WWII communications tower hidden in the woods. Supposing that it was a courting couple and I might get to see some boobs I crept up to it very slowly through frost-encrusted bracken. There was a single figure in the driver's seat, slumped against the window, not moving. I spent a good ten minutes or so debating with myself whether or not it was a dead man. It was milk-white and completely motionless. It had a waxy appearance. I was convinced it was a mannequin or wax figure. Only when I finally dared to go right up to the window and observed the details, the eyelashes, stubble etc, did I realise that, yes, this was a human corpse. And it was then that I noticed the hosepipe attached to the exhaust, snaking in through a narrowly opened rear window.

As you say, when one finds a dead body where there is usually no expectation of finding a dead body, the mind processes it as being something else, and takes quite a bit of persuading that it IS in fact a dead body. I was sure it was a wax figure or a mannequin.

Hi Henry,

Many thanks for sharing what must have been a very chilling and upsetting experience for you.

Fortunately for Cross and Paul, neither actually saw the horrific injuries inflicted on Nichols. [Even if Cross had inflicted them he couldn't have seen any or he'd never have let Paul anywhere near the woman.] One wonders how they must have felt when they learned about all the gory details. Shocked but relieved probably.

What a shame Cross is not allowed to rest in peace.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Yes, I thought that too, Abby. At the very least I think, on occasion, they would have been in close proximity to one another. However, I also sense that this was the sort of neighbourhood where commuters would have kept themselves to themselves, and would therefore have been wary of strangers, who they would have instinctively sought to avoid or to make eye contact with.

Good point, John, backed up by Robert Paul himself of course!

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

Good point, John, backed up by Robert Paul himself of course!

Love,

Caz
X

Hi john and caz
but I think for those very reasons they would also be perceptive of other innocuous walkers to work, especially in dangerous conditions, perhaps another ally or at least who wouldn't be a threat.

I used to work as a bouncer at a bar in a city and because of lack of parking we had to park and walk about 15 minutes away. leaving at 2:30 in the morning, I quickly became aware of the comings and goings of the few people I saw and the regular walkers who were doing the same things as me.

[Abby Normal]

Not nesicarilly Abby.

We don't know what time Paul normally left home or indeed his start time at work. Without that we have no idea how close their daily routes were to each other

It's perfectly possible that the never saw each other, at least not so they would recognise each other. It could be the most they ever saw of each other was a dark shape in the distance.

Steve

hi el
well they came upon each other within seconds of lech hesitating so....

[Patrick S]

I pretty much agree. Although in those times and circumstances and location, I'm pretty sure they would have seen people sleeping, drunk, maybe injured in public areas.

But you make a good point. Either that or lech was a really really good lier.

Abby - So you now agree a "raising of the alarm" would have been premature in that the figure - after Cross had discerned it was a woman and not a tarpaulin, etc. - could very well have been "sleeping, drunk, maybe injured"? Thus, you now agree that his approaching the first person to happen along was appropriate (as opposed to yelling, "Murder!", hammering on doors, all that)?

[Joshua Rogan]

One wonders how they must have felt when they learned about all the gory details. Shocked but relieved probably.

That's a good point. I've often wondered if Paul's apparrent attack on the police in his interview was occasioned by some redirected sense of guilt at not having done more, once the full facts became known.

[John G]

Good point, John, backed up by Robert Paul himself of course!

Love,

Caz
X

Yes, Caz. It's obvious from Paul's evidence that when Cross walked towards him he wasn't thinking that the stranger's intent was innocent, i.e. to introduce himself to a fellow commuter or to ask directions. More likely, he was in fear of his life!

[Patrick S]

That's a good point. I've often wondered if Paul's apparrent attack on the police in his interview was occasioned by some redirected sense of guilt at not having done more, once the full facts became known.

To my thinking, Paul's seeming frustration toward the police was perhaps informed by his perception that Mizen's reaction was not - as far as he was concerned - appropriate. However, I think it's also possible that he was echoing an overall sense of anger that was present among many in the area. Anger stirred by media reports critical of the police and their handling of previous, seemingly connected crimes. While “Polly” Nichols is generally considered to have been the first victim of “Jack the Ripper”, there had already been several unsolved crimes that had the police under heightened scrutiny.

On February 28, 1888, 38 year old Annie Millwood was attacked by a man she described as a stranger. She was stabbed with a knife in the “legs and lower torso”. She was admitted to Whitechapel Workhouse Infirmary. She recovered and was released on March 21. However, ten days later Millwood collapsed and died. The coroner determined the cause of death as, “'sudden effusion into the pericardium from the rupture of the left pulmonary artery through ulceration.”

On March 28, 1888, Ada Wilson answered a knock at the door of her home. A man used force to enter and demanded money. Wilson refused. She was stabbed twice in the throat. Wilson survived her injuries.

On April 3, 1888, Emma Smith reported that she was attacked by three or four “youths”. She was raped and beaten, and robbed. Her assailants thrust a blunt object into her vagina, tearing her perineum. She was able to return to her lodging house. She was admitted to the London Hospital where she died of her injuries for days later.

On August 7, 1888, Martha Tabram was found murdered in the George Yard Buildings. She had been stabbed thirty-nine times, primarily about the abdomen, breasts, and pelvic area.

[Joshua Rogan]

To me it is.
And you bring up another point that's odd to me. If it's a common going to work thing with these two, and any minor delay by lech, or conversely any early departure from Paul, and these two should have been accustomed to seeing each other.

Given that Cross' walk to work extended over half a mile beyond Paul's own, they would normally be separated by a good 10 minutes, probably more, on their daily commute - assuming, that is, that they both had to start work at the same time, took the same route and walked at the same speed.

[Elamarna]

hi el
well they came upon each other within seconds of lech hesitating so....

Hi Abby
Yes but both said they were behind time, in the case of lech up to 10 minutes so. We know he started at 4. That gives a very leisurely walk. We have no idea about Paul with which to work. However his journey to work was just under 15 minutes at an average pace.

A few seconds apart, at least 20 I would say. Certainly far enough in the light to make recognition extremely difficult I would suggest.

For them to meet it would require Paul to leave home 5 - 6 mins after Lech and even then the likelihood of them seeing each other is small.

Has Caz commented much more likely if they were going in opposite directions and so passed each other face to face.

I go for a walk most mornings and expect to see the same people every day walking towards me. However I have no idea about those walking in front of me in the same direction, unless they are someone I can visually from behind, either a friend or someone I actually know.

Steve

[Elamarna]

Given that Cross' walk to work extended over half a mile beyond Paul's own, they would normally be separated by a good 10 minutes, probably more, on their daily commute - assuming, that is, that they both had to start work at the same time, took the same route and walked at the same speed.

Very clearly put Joshua.


Steve

[Abby Normal]

Abby - So you now agree a "raising of the alarm" would have been premature in that the figure - after Cross had discerned it was a woman and not a tarpaulin, etc. - could very well have been "sleeping, drunk, maybe injured"? Thus, you now agree that his approaching the first person to happen along was appropriate (as opposed to yelling, "Murder!", hammering on doors, all that)?

not really, since he could have called him over.

and I find it odd he waited for paul to get close, and as paul tries to avoid him he goes to him and taps his shoulder before he says anything. you don't find either strange?