The Nature of Evidence

[Joshua Rogan]

Paul worked as a carman for Covent-Garden Market near Hanbury Street in Spitalfields

Corbet's Court, almost at the western end of Hanbury Street, near where it meets Commercial St. Presumably this is where his horse and cart were stabled, as it's roughly 2.5 miles from Covent Garden market.

[David Orsam]

I just can't think of a reason why Simon Wood could be angry with you

That was back in February 2015 though. He book wasn't out then and I'd never said a word about anything he'd ever published. In fact, we were on reasonably good terms at the time he posted that comment, so it was quite baffling.

I assumed at the time it was because he'd made a couple of mistakes in the same thread while asking me questions about my schedule of reporters and became angry. In fact, the chain of posts started with him complimenting my schedule (he said "Nice work" and asked if one of the reporters could have been from a press agency).

You can see the thread here, starts at #27 and ends with his outburst at #69. Quite amusing looking back at it.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8492&page=3

[Pierre]

Paul worked as a carman for Covent-Garden Market near Hanbury Street in Spitalfields

Thanks Patrick.

Pierre

[Patrick S]

Hi Steve,


Do you know where Paul worked?



Cheers, Pierre

Paul worked as a carman for Covent-Garden Market near Hanbury Street in Spitalfields

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

That's a definate with the 3.40. Thanks for pointing it out. 2 or 3 minutes spare then rather than 10.

You're right of course that it could be said that he left home earlier but why would he end up back on Bucks Row? It's surely stretching it to posit that he left home earlier, found Nichols elsewhere and took her back to an area that passed every day on his away to work at around the same time! It's more likely by far that he simply found her in that spot.

Regards

Herlock

I tend to agree.

If he went faster he could do the trip from home to work in 24 or 25. Of course if he was going like a race walker it's under 20 if my memory is right. Not bothering to look it up.

Anyway that is the argument u will get, and it is impossible to disprove he left earlier than he said.
The major issue is not the time he leaves of course but the timing of Paul.

That's another issue of course.


Steve

[Herlock Sholmes]

That's certainly true. In fact, it stirred up more controversy that I could ever have imagined for what I thought was an entirely non-controversial thread.

Simon Wood in particular seemed to become upset at my conclusions, saying:

"As it has become patently obvious that you have lost your grasp on reality, I shall leave you to your fantasies."

Mr Lucky also became rather irate if I recall.

I never could quite understand why.

Hi David

I just can't think of a reason why Simon Wood could be angry with you

Regards

Herlock

[Herlock Sholmes]

If he was, then he was a killer with a piss-poor instinct for time management

Hi Sam,

As Steve has just pointed out to me it should read 3.20 for The Times and not 3.40! So that only leaves 2 or 3 minutes to find and kill Polly!

Regards

Herlock

[Pierre]

Yes nothing is perfect and the two are far to close together but at least Paul in on the correct side of the road.

Steve

Hi Steve,

In the newspaper source here on the forum we have this from Paul:

"The man walked with him to Montague-street, and there they saw a policeman."

Did Paul and Lechmere "see a policeman, i.e. meet him together?

Or did Paul and Lechmere "see a policeman", i.e. spot him from Montague-Street?

Did Paul walk away after he had seen the PC and the PC had seen "a carman who passed in company with another man..."?

Is there any source at all for Paul having spoken to Mizen?

Do you know where Paul worked?

I canīt ask Fisherman these questions since he systematically ignores me. Good for him, perhaps.

Cheers, Pierre

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock

Before someone jumps all over you there is a typo there the Times is 3.20, not 3.40.

At a reasonable pace, not excessively fast between 27 and 28 minutes from door to door.

The argument which will be used against you is that Lechmere may have left earlier than even 3.20. Of course such cannot be disproved and is one of the tactics employed by the Pro Lechmere people.


Steve

Hi Steve,

That's a definate with the 3.40. Thanks for pointing it out. 2 or 3 minutes spare then rather than 10.

You're right of course that it could be said that he left home earlier but why would he end up back on Bucks Row? It's surely stretching it to posit that he left home earlier, found Nichols elsewhere and took her back to an area that passed every day on his away to work at around the same time! It's more likely by far that he simply found her in that spot.

Regards

Herlock

[David Orsam]

Some may not agree with all of it.

That's certainly true. In fact, it stirred up more controversy that I could ever have imagined for what I thought was an entirely non-controversial thread.

Simon Wood in particular seemed to become upset at my conclusions, saying:

"As it has become patently obvious that you have lost your grasp on reality, I shall leave you to your fantasies."

Mr Lucky also became rather irate if I recall.

I never could quite understand why.

[Elamarna]

Not at all, Steve, I just think it's a useful exercise to establish which reports were by different journalists. When I was initially trying to compare reports of the evidence of Charles Cross at the 3rd September hearing a couple of years ago, I ended up "corroborating" evidence from different newspapers only to end up realising that they were actually identical reports! Hence I did an exercise of trying to work out which newspapers carried the same reports and which were unique (and there is a separate thread on this) to avoid others doing the same thing.

I never did this with the reports from the 1st September, though, and was surprised to discover yesterday that the majority of them were written by the same person!

David

I have indeed read the other thread and you will find that when I post part 2 next week that I recommend others to have a look at it. Some may not agree with all of it but it is a good background to the inquest reporting in my opinion.

Steve

[David Orsam]

Not at all, Steve, I just think it's a useful exercise to establish which reports were by different journalists. When I was initially trying to compare reports of the evidence of Charles Cross at the 3rd September hearing a couple of years ago, I ended up "corroborating" evidence from different newspapers only to end up realising that they were actually identical reports! Hence I did an exercise of trying to work out which newspapers carried the same reports and which were unique (and there is a separate thread on this) to avoid others doing the same thing.

I never did this with the reports from the 1st September, though, and was surprised to discover yesterday that the majority of them were written by the same person!

[Elamarna]

To simplify my point. CL left home at 3.30 (I know that The Times said 3.40, but as per the documentary Fish I think that you accept 3.30 as likeliest time?) He was due at work at 4.00. I can't recall from Steve's research how long it would take to walk from Doveton Street to Broad Street but let's say 20 minutes for arguements sake. That leaves a spare 10 minutes.

10 minutes to deviate from his work route to a more promising hunting ground/ to find and engage with a prostitute/ to find a spot and kill her/ possibly to check himself over for incriminating bloodstains/ then to continue to work (from a location that could have been further away than on his original route.)

All in 10 minutes!

Surely we have to accept that this makes CL an unlikely killer?

Regards

Herlock

Hi Herlock

Before someone jumps all over you there is a typo there the Times is 3.20, not 3.40.

At a reasonable pace, not excessively fast between 27 and 28 minutes from door to door.

The argument which will be used against you is that Lechmere may have left earlier than even 3.20. Of course such cannot be disproved and is one of the tactics employed by the Pro Lechmere people.


Steve

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

I'm not sure if you are suggesting that the Evening Post story is a "version" of the Lloyds story rather than a separate report but I would say that the account of Neil's evidence in the Evening Post is so different to the account in Lloyds/Morning Advertiser/Standard etc. that they must surely have been written by different reporters.

The key to identifying the different reporters in court on that day may be in the address of Edward Walker.

According to Lloyds/Morning Advertiser/Standard etc. he lived at "15, Maidwell-street, Albany-road, Camberwell".

According to the Evening Post reporter, however, he lived in "Maiden-street, Albany-road, Camberwell", no door number being provided.

The Times has his address as being "16 Maidswood-road, Camberwell" from which I think we can conclude that the Times had a separate reporter at the inquest and that there were at least three reporters in the courtroom that day.

I note that the Echo - assuming it's been transcribed correctly - has Walker living at "16, Madswood-street, Albany-road, Camberwell" which is a bit similar to the Times but might indicate the presence of a fourth reporter.

Seperate account in my view. Obviously based on same information but with enough difference to say it's by another hand than Lloyds.

Sorry if my use of "version" confused you.
The Times having a different reporter may equally explain the report being written in the 3rd person.

Steve

[Patrick S]

To simplify my point. CL left home at 3.30 (I know that The Times said 3.40, but as per the documentary Fish I think that you accept 3.30 as likeliest time?) He was due at work at 4.00. I can't recall from Steve's research how long it would take to walk from Doveton Street to Broad Street but let's say 20 minutes for arguements sake. That leaves a spare 10 minutes.

10 minutes to deviate from his work route to a more promising hunting ground/ to find and engage with a prostitute/ to find a spot and kill her/ possibly to check himself over for incriminating bloodstains/ then to continue to work (from a location that could have been further away than on his original route.)

All in 10 minutes!

Surely we have to accept that this makes CL an unlikely killer?

Regards

Herlock

Hi, Herlock. I agree. Cross is an unlikely killer for many reasons.

We're told he was a psychopath because he killed Nichols and if he killed Nichols he was Jack the Ripper and that Jack the Ripper was clearly a psychopath. Of course, we've no evidence he killed Nichols. And there's nothing we know of his life outside of Buck's Row to indicate psychopathy.

For instance, men incarcerated for violent crimes have a higher incidence of psychopathy. Likely 20-30% of such men are thought to be psychopaths. Thus, if we had some evidence suggesting that Cross had been violent and/or incarcerated for a violent crime, we'd have a reason to suspect that an increased likelihood of psychopathy might be possible. Alas, we've no records that Cross was ever violent, arrested, incarcerated, etc. On the contrary, the records show he resided, consistently, throughout his life, at addresses that place him outside of any prison.

As well, I'm always confused when proponents of "the carman" as Jack the Ripper discuss the time that Cross may or may not have left his home, if he had time to commit the crime, etc. We're to believe he was a psychopath, Jack the Ripper, but he was truthful about the time he left for work on the morning Nichols was killed?

Further, are we to believe that Cross - as the Ripper - arose for work each day like any man would, allowing sufficient time to get to work, allowing only a few moments to ensure he'd not be late due to unforeseen circumstances, while planning to commit murder - should the opportunity arise - on his way to work? So, he was a psychopath, Jack the Ripper, but only when his daily schedule allowed him the time?

Cross testified at the inquest that he left 22 Doveton Street in Bethnal Green around 3:30am. If one believes him to have been Nichols' killer, isn't it more likely he left home at midnight? 2am? Was his desire to kill such that he could take it or leave it? That is to say, if the opportunity arose to kill a prostitute situated along his route to work, during the thirty minutes or so he allowed for his work commute, then he would happily do so and his bloodlust would be satiated. And if not, well, that's okay, too....there's always tomorrow?

This seems hard to believe, based on what we know of the murders. For instance, if we believe in the Double Event then we believe the killer pursued another victim because he'd failed to achieve a satisfactory outcome with Stride due to the arrival of Deimshutz in Dutfield's Yard. Thus, he seeks out another victim, and we get Eddowes in Mitre Square. As well, are we to believe that he left for work earlier, on just that night? It's evident the killer spent far more time with her than he did the other victims. So, if his MO was to kill women he propositioned along his route to work while he made his way to work, during the time allotted for his commute to work, how does Kelly fit? He broke the MO and left earlier for her, on the just the right night. The night he met a woman with her own room. And in having that extra time he was able to fully indulge his fantasies? Lucky day, that! He did all that to poor Mary and still made it to work on time? Or, are we to also believe that he might have cut the carnage in Miller's Court short because he was due at work?