Lechmere The Psychopath

[Henry Flower]

Absolutely. He thought there MAY have been breathing - or, at best, there may have been movement suggestive of breathing. Nothing about the escaping of air, nothing remotely about (e.g.) holding a mirror to the corpse's mouth to see if it misted up.

It's quite possible of course that a mirror could more profitably have been held to the poor lady's throat-cut than to her mouth if signs of exhalation were being sought.

[Fisherman]

Absolutely. He thought there MAY have been breathing - or, at best, there may have been movement suggestive of breathing. Nothing about the escaping of air, nothing remotely about (e.g.) holding a mirror to the corpse's mouth to see if it misted up.

This was how I always read the affair too, Gareth. But on closer inspection, it seems very clear that he did not just think there may have been breathing - he said that there WERE indications of it.

Daily News: "He felt sure he detected faint indications of breathing

Daily Telegraph: He detected a slight movement as of breathing, but very faint

East London Advertiser: He put his hand to the womans breast and felt a slight breath, such a one as might be felt in a child two or three months old

Times: He touched the breast and then fancied he felt a slight movement

Many papers do not mention the detail, for whatever reason. But those who do, do not speak of a possible movement, but instead of a definitive one, albeit faint.

It seems that over the years, a "truth" has emerged, telling us that Paul was not sure. Apparently, he was.

And to all of this, we must add what I wrote in an earlier post: Paul may have felt that his suggestion must have sounded odd, given that when he testified, it was well known that the woman had had her neck cut to the bone and her belly ripped up. How could such a woman breathe? It would sound preposterous, and Paul would have known this, so maybe that made him less pushy on the point.

Thereīs another twist that is of interest here, and it becomes clear if we add a bit more to the Times quotation: "When he was pulling the clothes down he touched the breast and then fancied he felt a slight movement".
So it seems that the slight movement was felt at the very end of the carmenīs examination, whereas one must admit that it would have been likelier to appear in the beginning, closer to the cutting process. I find this speaks somewhat against Paul being on the money, although I will not rule anything out as of now.

The important thing to keep in mind is that it seems that Paul did not say "I thought I felt something, but I am not sure". He said something that can be condensed into "I felt something, but it was not very much".

A twitch, maybe, as has been suggested. Any which way, if Paul was correct, we have some sort of movement within the body, and to me that cannot possibly be a bad thing if one promotes Lechmere as the probable killer. I readily accept the possibility that Paul may have only imagined that he felt something, and I would not rule out that he may have been a nervous fellow, who was easily spooked, and this may have lain behind it all. There is also the possibility that he made it up to sound more interesting. Nothing can be ruled out, but for the idea that Paul would somehow have said that he was uncertain about it. There is nothing to tell us that this was so, unless I have missed out on a report in some paper.

[Rainbow]

Robert Paul said he lived at 30 Forster street, Whitechapel. On the Friday he left home just before a quarter to four, and on passing up Buck's row he saw a man in the middle of the road, who drew his attention to the murdered woman. He and the man examined the body, and he felt sure he detected faint indications of breathing. the body was partly warm, though it was a chilly morning. He and the man discussed what was best to be done, and they decided that they ought to acquaint the first policeman they met with what they had discovered.

The man touched witness on the shoulder and asked him to look at the woman, who was lying across the gateway. He felt her hands and face, and they were cold. The clothes were disarranged, and he helped to pull them down. Before he did so he detected a slight movement as of breathing, but very faint. The man walked with him to Montague-street, and there they saw a policeman. Not more than four minutes had elapsed from the time he first saw the woman]

He put his hand to the womans breast and felt a slight breath, such a one as might be felt in a child two or three months old

He touched the breast and then fancied he felt a slight movement

He detected this breathing not at the end of this examination, because after that he helped pull her clothes down and disscussed what the best they should do, and most important: he used his hands to detect it, and the report that say he knelt at first to try to detect any breathing 'from her nose', will make him this time more careful, and he will give more attention, that gives much value to his second try with his hands this time on her chest. and thats why he said he was sure he detected indications of breathing.

He gave her breathing most of his attention from the start, if he wasn't sure, he wouldn't say that then even after he knew she was cut to the bone..

This last breath of poor Nichols, was her last words, and last message, to Paul and the generations that will come:

"Lechmere was the Ripper"

[Elamarna]

This was how I always read the affair too, Gareth. But on closer inspection, it seems very clear that he did not just think there may have been breathing - he said that there WERE indications of it.

Daily News: "He felt sure he detected faint indications of breathing

Daily Telegraph: He detected a slight movement as of breathing, but very faint

East London Advertiser: He put his hand to the womans breast and felt a slight breath, such a one as might be felt in a child two or three months old

Times: He touched the breast and then fancied he felt a slight movement

Many papers do not mention the detail, for whatever reason. But those who do, do not speak of a possible movement, but instead of a definitive one, albeit faint.

It seems that over the years, a "truth" has emerged, telling us that Paul was not sure. Apparently, he was.

And to all of this, we must add what I wrote in an earlier post: Paul may have felt that his suggestion must have sounded odd, given that when he testified, it was well known that the woman had had her neck cut to the bone and her belly ripped up. How could such a woman breathe? It would sound preposterous, and Paul would have known this, so maybe that made him less pushy on the point.

Thereīs another twist that is of interest here, and it becomes clear if we add a bit more to the Times quotation: "When he was pulling the clothes down he touched the breast and then fancied he felt a slight movement".
So it seems that the slight movement was felt at the very end of the carmenīs examination, whereas one must admit that it would have been likelier to appear in the beginning, closer to the cutting process. I find this speaks somewhat against Paul being on the money, although I will not rule anything out as of now.

The important thing to keep in mind is that it seems that Paul did not say "I thought I felt something, but I am not sure". He said something that can be condensed into "I felt something, but it was not very much".

A twitch, maybe, as has been suggested. Any which way, if Paul was correct, we have some sort of movement within the body, and to me that cannot possibly be a bad thing if one promotes Lechmere as the probable killer. I readily accept the possibility that Paul may have only imagined that he felt something, and I would not rule out that he may have been a nervous fellow, who was easily spooked, and this may have lain behind it all. There is also the possibility that he made it up to sound more interesting. Nothing can be ruled out, but for the idea that Paul would somehow have said that he was uncertain about it. There is nothing to tell us that this was so, unless I have missed out on a report in some paper.

Interesting point about moving the clothing of course Fish, it appears from the various testimonies that this was difficult and it cannot be ruled out that this attempt to move the clothing may have resulted in some type of response from the body.


So where have we got?

Did Paul feel movement of some sort?

It seems he did but that is not news.

Was it breathing?

That is not clear, the terms used say "as of" or "like" or "he fancied"
Which are not definitive terms. The Daily News is different.

Conclusion: it could have been, but it's unlikely we will ever be sure.

What we have so far certainly does not exclude Lechmere and until we have some informed information on how long breathing could continue in the circumstances really can go no further.
In small animals the timeframe is very small, that I can put hand on heart and confirm. However I do not know how that translates into larger species and humans.
As I said yesterday I fear we will get a range that can be used by both pro and anti Lechmere arguments and prove nothing.


If however the 20 - 30 seconds suggestion was correct it would strongly suggest that Paul is highly unlikely to have detected actual breathing.

We will just have to wait I guess or we will enter into endless speculation.


Steve

[Elamarna]

Rainbow

You posted the following from the Telegraph i think:


"The man touched witness on the shoulder and asked him to look at the woman, who was lying across the gateway. He felt her hands and face, and they were cold. The clothes were disarranged, and he helped to pull them down. Before he did so he detected a slight movement as of breathing, but very faint. The man walked with him to Montague-street, and there they saw a policeman. Not more than four minutes had elapsed from the time he first saw the woman "

However this the Times say something different:

"While he was pulling the clothes down he touched the breast, and then fancied he felt a slight movement".


And this the problem about making claims basses on one report; another will say just the opposite.

Steve

[Fisherman]

He detected this breathing not at the end of this examination, because after that he helped pull her clothes down and disscussed what the best they should do, and most important: he used his hands to detect it, and the report that say he knelt at first to try to detect any breathing 'from her nose', will make him this time more careful, and he will give more attention, that gives much value to his second try with his hands this time on her chest. and thats why he said he was sure he detected indications of breathing.

He gave her breathing most of his attention from the start, if he wasn't sure, he wouldn't say that then even after he knew she was cut to the bone..

This last breath of poor Nichols, was her last words, and last message, to Paul and the generations that will come:

"Lechmere was the Ripper"

It seems to me that the feeling for breath at the chest came at or towards the end of the proceedings at any rate. Whether it was done before the clothes-pulling or in combination with it is an open question, but at any rate it was not what came first in the examination of the body.
All in all, it would have been a quick enough examination, and we may be looking at less than a minute, so it is perhaps not all that important.

[Fisherman]

Rainbow

You posted the following from the Telegraph i think:


"The man touched witness on the shoulder and asked him to look at the woman, who was lying across the gateway. He felt her hands and face, and they were cold. The clothes were disarranged, and he helped to pull them down. Before he did so he detected a slight movement as of breathing, but very faint. The man walked with him to Montague-street, and there they saw a policeman. Not more than four minutes had elapsed from the time he first saw the woman "

However this the Times say something different:

"While he was pulling the clothes down he touched the breast, and then fancied he felt a slight movement".


And this the problem about making claims basses on one report; another will say just the opposite.

Steve

Adding a little logic, it seems odd if he felt the chest when pulling at the skirt. It seems likelier that he felt the chest first and then went onto the decency side of things.

But as you say, there can be no certainty at all. The one point that can and should be made is that Paul seems to have been more certain about the movement than what is usually allowed for in the discussions out here.

[Rainbow]

There is no problem at all, one report was specific in reporting the exact time of this (Before), and one was talking in general.

[Elamarna]

There is no problem at all, one report was specific in reporting the exact time of this (Before), and one was talking in general.

No it's not. Before and while (during) are both specific.

We are no further advanced than 24 hours ago on if the movement was breathing.

We have the same issues, how long after the cuts will the breathing stop. Just different causes of such.

A definitive short time frame 20 to 30 seconds or less than a minute probably means that Paul could not have detected actual breathing.
Any other suggestions will I am sure be debated passionately.

Steve

[Elamarna]

Adding a little logic, it seems odd if he felt the chest when pulling at the skirt. It seems likelier that he felt the chest first and then went onto the decency side of things.

But as you say, there can be no certainty at all. The one point that can and should be made is that Paul seems to have been more certain about the movement than what is usually allowed for in the discussions out here.

Maybe but remember that it was also reported that doing this was difficult by Lechmere and in those circumstances one may put a hand on the chest to give support to the pulling down movement. Certainly not pushing such but looks reasonable to me.

I have actually never doubted he thought he felt movement, such is backed by many, but not all, of the reports of Lechmere's testimony.

It's what that movement was which is the question is it not?

I guess I have always assumed it was probably not breathing, but some post attack muscle spasm.

Apart from the odd comment the last 18 hours or so have been a good debate.

Steve

[Elamarna]

Just an idea , could pressure to the chest say a hand placed on it cause any movement of the chest?
You certainly get that while performing CPR, that could be mistaken for breathing .

We really do need a professional opinion on the whole issue


Steve

[Rainbow]

No it's not. Before and while (during) are both specific.

Steve

And NO in return, he CANNOT pull the clothes down, and put his hands on her chest at the same time, one had happened before the other, and the report said clearly and conclusively which one had happened before.

It is clear when one want to see!

[Elamarna]

And NO in return, he CANNOT pull the clothes down, and put his hands on her chest at the same time, one had happened before the other, and the report said clearly and conclusively which one had happened before.

It is clear when one want to see!

That is not what the two sources quoted say.

I will not bother to argue as you appear not to understand the meaning of the words used.

Best we wait to get some real medical facts rather than arguments which go one way or another based on preconceived views and opinions.


Steve

[Rainbow]

He put his hand to the womans breast and felt a slight breath, such a one as might be felt in a child two or three months old

This is not a description of just a one single movement that can be confused with a twitch, he is talking about a slight breath , and I think we all know what does breathing look like.

[Elamarna]

And NO in return, he CANNOT pull the clothes down, and put his hands on her chest at the same time, one had happened before the other, and the report said clearly and conclusively which one had happened before.

It is clear when one want to see!

The exact point.

You want to see it like that!


Steve