Lechmere The Psychopath

[Elamarna]

So "detected" is the word of the journalist?

And the expression "felt sure" is the expression of a journalist?

Pierre

That particular report along with that in the Woodford Times are the strongest in the degree of certainty. It should also be mentioned that contrary to the other reports they say the body was partially warm, others say different, that the body parts felt were cold.

Steve

[Rainbow]

It's the only inquest report of Paul where he says he thinks she is dead!

However it fits very well with the Lechmere reports of the same event.


The Times 18/09/88

"He knelt down to see if he could hear her breathe, but could not, and he thought she was dead"

However later he says:
"He touched the breast , and then, fancied he felt a slight movement"

To me he is confused himself. Was the movement breathing or not ? and if so why earlier say he thought she was dead.


Steve

When he knelt down, he was trying to hear if she was breathing from her Nose

but by examining her chest he detected the breathing.

This is clear!

[Fisherman]

Elamarna: If it really does stop within say 1 minute. It does make it highly unlikely that Paul felt anything.

It would make Lechmere the killer for certain, of course.

If it were say up to 4minutrs that may suggest the throat is cut second.

Itīs hard to say - the overall cutting is hard to determine timewise, not least since we know from the other cases that the killer was a really quick man with the knife.

If it's longer we have nothing I think.

Well, the longer the time, the fewer the implications.

This is what I have wanted to debate all weekend, data to support the suggestion..

Am glad you are back. Bet you never believed you would hear that.

Somehow, I am not all that surprised. You may be more surprised yourself to have that sentiment returned - not least since you never were away...

[Fisherman]

It's the only inquest report of Paul where he says he thinks she is dead!

However it fits very well with the Lechmere reports of the same event.


The Times 18/09/88

"He knelt down to see if he could hear her breathe, but could not, and he thought she was dead"

However later he says:
"He touched the breast , and then, fancied he felt a slight movement"

To me he is confused himself. Was the movement breathing or not ? and if so why earlier say he thought she was dead.


Steve

That sounds to me like he first failed to notice any breath, taking that as an indication of death, only to then put his hand on her chest and suddenly feel a slight movement.

To me, this reads as if he changes his mind when making a closer examination.

On the whole, when discussing this, we may need to weigh in that Paul knew quite well on the 17:th of September that he was talking about a nigh on decapitated woman with a belly turned inside out; logically, that is about as dead as you can get. So in a manner, I would not rule out that he expressed himself with some caution when testifying about the movement of the chest. He may have felt that any suggestion of the woman having been alive would get him laughed out of court.

Thoughts about that?

[Rainbow]

That sounds to me like he first failed to notice any breath, taking that as an indication of death, only to then put his hand on her chest and suddenly feel a slight movement.

To me, this reads as if he changes his mind when making a closer examination.

On the whole, when discussing this, we may need to weigh in that Paul knew quite well on the 17:th of September that he was talking about a nigh on decapitated woman with a belly turned inside out; logically, that is about as dead as you can get. So in a manner, I would not rule out that he expressed himself with some caution when testifying about the movement of the chest. He may have felt that any suggestion of the woman having been alive would get him laughed out of court.

Thoughts about that?

I LOVE THIS MAN!!!

At last I can be sure I am not the only soul in this green earth!

[Patrick S]

I LOVE THIS MAN!!!

At last I can be sure I am not the only soul in this green earth!

[Harry D]

I LOVE THIS MAN!!!

At last I can be sure I am not the only soul in this green earth!

What's it they say about the first sign of madness?

[Elamarna]

That sounds to me like he first failed to notice any breath, taking that as an indication of death, only to then put his hand on her chest and suddenly feel a slight movement.

To me, this reads as if he changes his mind when making a closer examination.


If the two comments were next to each other I would agree, but they are spaced out. e
It read to me as he is confused. I doubt we will agree

On the whole, when discussing this, we may need to weigh in that Paul knew quite well on the 17:th of September that he was talking about a nigh on decapitated woman with a belly turned inside out; logically, that is about as dead as you can get. So in a manner, I would not rule out that he expressed himself with some caution when testifying about the movement of the chest. He may have felt that any suggestion of the woman having been alive would get him laughed out of court.

Thoughts about that?

Or he just felt a muscular twitch.


Steve

[Fisherman]

Or he just felt a muscular twitch.


Steve

Possibly, yes - but that would differ from how breathing feels. Anyhow, if he did feel something, it reinforces the suggestion that Lechmere was the cutter. Maybe that, taken together with the overall state of Nichols, has contributed to the overall feeling that there is a major chance that he felt nothing at all?
Much of the picture people today have of the case owes to how "common sense" has had itīs way over the years, I feel. Which is an odd state of affairs, considering how there is nothing sensible at all about serial killing...

[Elamarna]

[QUOTE=Fisherman;419440]

Ok I have been digging online.
Breathing will stop with brain death.

However it's unclear if that is immediate at the onset or when its complete.

So somewhere from 30 seconds to 4 minutes which fits both suggestions.


It would make Lechmere the killer for certain, of course.


If Paul really detected breathing than it points towards Lechmere if it's at the shorter end of the range


Steve

[Patrick S]

Possibly, yes - but that would differ from how breathing feels. Anyhow, if he did feel something, it reinforces the suggestion that Lechmere was the cutter. Maybe that, taken together with the overall state of Nichols, has contributed to the overall feeling that there is a major chance that he felt nothing at all?
Much of the picture people today have of the case owes to how "common sense" has had itīs way over the years, I feel. Which is an odd state of affairs, considering how there is nothing sensible at all about serial killing...

If Paul did feel "a slight breath" then I think we can assume that Nichols wasn't dead. And if Nichols wasn't dead when Paul and Cross popped into to Buck's Row strangers and left best friends, then it's clear that she became (nearly) decapitated after the two pals left Buck's Row. Thus, the dreaded "Phantom", or James Green, or whoever choked Nichols out, hid close by, and popped out for the coup de gras after frick and frack headed off to find Mizen. I don't think it went down that way. But, it makes more sense than anything I've read here.

Of course, as with all things (except when we discuss this Lechmere business) the obvious explanation is probably correct: Paul DID NOT detect a slight movement because she wasn't breathing.

[Elamarna]

Possibly, yes - but that would differ from how breathing feels. Anyhow, if he did feel something, it reinforces the suggestion that Lechmere was the cutter. Maybe that, taken together with the overall state of Nichols, has contributed to the overall feeling that there is a major chance that he felt nothing at all?
Much of the picture people today have of the case owes to how "common sense" has had itīs way over the years, I feel. Which is an odd state of affairs, considering how there is nothing sensible at all about serial killing...

I guess we will never know for sure if he felt breathing or not.
I think good arguments can be made in either direction.

Your post 672 was a good post on the position I believe.

Steve

[Pierre]

That particular report along with that in the Woodford Times are the strongest in the degree of certainty. It should also be mentioned that contrary to the other reports they say the body was partially warm, others say different, that the body parts felt were cold.

Steve

OK, so on a postulated scale for "temperature in the past", an imaginative device, we must use sources having different statements about temperature.

The result is no validity at all.

Cheers, Pierre

[Fisherman]

If Paul did feel "a slight breath" then I think we can assume that Nichols wasn't dead. And if Nichols wasn't dead when Paul and Cross popped into to Buck's Row strangers and left best friends, then it's clear that she became (nearly) decapitated after the two pals left Buck's Row. Thus, the dreaded "Phantom", or James Green, or whoever choked Nichols out, hid close by, and popped out for the coup de gras after frick and frack headed off to find Mizen. I don't think it went down that way. But, it makes more sense than anything I've read here.

Of course, as with all things (except when we discuss this Lechmere business) the obvious explanation is probably correct: Paul DID NOT detect a slight movement because she wasn't breathing.

You may be forgetting that you must allow for the possibility that Lechmere was in Bucks Row a number of minutes before Paul arrived. And in such a case, there may definitely have been twitching some time after Lechmere cut her (if he was the cutter, and I do think he was, as you know), and possibly there may have been breathing too - or so I am told.

Whether Paul did or did not feel any movement, we will never know for sure, but it is interesting that you speak of the "obvious explanation", since it is much in line with what I just posted about people always going for what they define as the common sense solution. Which is understandable, but not necessarily correct in each case.

[Fisherman]

[QUOTE=Elamarna;419447]

Ok I have been digging online.
Breathing will stop with brain death.

However it's unclear if that is immediate at the onset or when its complete.

So somewhere from 30 seconds to 4 minutes which fits both suggestions.


It would make Lechmere the killer for certain, of course.


If Paul really detected breathing than it points towards Lechmere if it's at the shorter end of the range


Steve

Yes, but brain death equals no signals travelling through the brain. And if you cut the blood supply, it seems that the brain shut down in 20-30 seconds. it was not dead, but inactive as if it was dead. And after three minutes, irreparable damage would start appearing.
The crucial question is this: regardless if there is a possible to save the brain by turning on the blood supply again, does not the inactivity of it 20-30 seconds after the blood supply is cut, ensure that there will be no breathing?

Whereīs that medico when you need him?