Lechmere The Psychopath

[Elamarna]

We have 4 reporting breathing of some description so such cannot be ruled out.

If however we look at Lechmere's account of the same event we find that the view is a little different, Paul first says she is dead, then says she MAY be breathing very faintly. There is obviously genuine debate and confusion here.

However for the sake of debate let us stick with she was breathing.

What does this really tell us?
On it's own nothing. To get a meaningful analysis of this we need to apply medical science:

a) Would the cutting of the windpipe stop the victim from breathing?

b) If not how long could it continue for?

c) What effect would the blood loss have on her breathing?

d) And what effect would blood from the Neck wound getting into the windpipe have?

From Rainbow's own statement on this forum its clear none of the four have been checked and the analysis applied to point to cutting within a few minutes is based on "logic". Given none of the four essential questions have been checked this is nothing more than Guesswork.


It seems just to claim the victim is breathing and this somehow fixes the time of the attack, this is not so far supported by any data provided.

This is the problem. Intreptation must be supported by data .


Steve

It occurred to me that it would be best if there were answers to the four points/questions raised above.

a. Not at all, so long as the airway is clear of obstructions and there is a route to the outside air. In this case the large neck wound and the open end of the cut treachea.

b. If that were the only wound there would be no limit, it's the same as a tracheostomy.
However breathing would be effected by the other wounds, and the effects there of.

c. It has already been posted by Kjab3113, with references, the time it would take to loose 50% of the blood volume, by either the Neck wounds or the Abdomen.
At this level of loss the heart would fail approx 3-4 after the cut.
This would obviously mean that if breathing had not already stoped at that point it would very soon after.

d. The blood flowing from the severed blood vessels in the Neck could cause serious problems with regards to breathing. Blood may well have flowed into the open trachea,. If such did occur, and it very possibly did, this would make breathing very difficult, the normal initial response to this would be increased attempts by the lungs to draw move air in. They may be heavy chest movements and gasping sounds. The condition described by Paul is very different to that, at one point he says it's as:

"as might be be felt in a child two or three months old"

The above views on the effect of the cutting of the windpipe are supported by Doctor Biggs who responded to a similar question from Trevor Marriott, most recently republished in Jack the Ripper - the real truth @2017


We have not even touched on the suggestion that Nichols may have been partially or fully strangled before the cutting took place.

It seems clear from the above and in the absence of alternative arguments that to suggest that breathing as described by Paul could place the time of death within a minute or two is unsupported.


However it does fit with the attack having taken place within 5 minutes of the discovery, and probably a little soon in line with the bleed out times suggested earlier.

This of course cannot exclude Lechmere if he was on site earlier than he claims; but it cannot place him there either.

Steve

[Henry Flower]

I would agree with all of that, Steve.

It's worth remembering that breathing is actually a byproduct of our brains telling our intercostal muscles and our diaphragm to contract and relax rhythmically throughout our lives. We always associate breathing with our mouths, noses, and necks - because those are the areas at which we can 'interfere' with someone's breathing. But in fact all the work is done by a few muscles at the diaphragm and between the ribs, and no cut throat is going to change that process, unless it is severe enough to interfere with the nervous system. Another variable that could affect breathing in particular might be stab wounds to the abdomen that puncture or damage the diaphragm or its attachments.

But you're absolutely right, there are so many variables that it's hard enough for someone WITH expertise to state with any degree of specificity what a vaguely described observation of possible breathing tells us about the time that has elapsed between the infliction of the wounds and the time of death, let alone people with no more anatomical or forensic knowledge than a layman like me.

[Elamarna]

I would agree with all of that, Steve.

It's worth remembering that breathing is actually a byproduct of our brains telling our intercostal muscles and our diaphragm to contract and relax rhythmically throughout our lives. We always associate breathing with our mouths, noses, and necks - because those are the areas at which we can 'interfere' with someone's breathing. But in fact all the work is done by a few muscles at the diaphragm and between the ribs, and no cut throat is going to change that process, unless it is severe enough to interfere with the nervous system. Another variable that could affect breathing in particular might be stab wounds to the abdomen that puncture or damage the diaphragm or its attachments.

Very good point, however in the absence of any evidence of such it would be wrong to assume that such existed.

But you're absolutely right, there are so many variables that it's hard enough for someone WITH expertise to state with any degree of specificity what a vaguely described observation of possible breathing tells us about the time that has elapsed between the infliction of the wounds and the time of death, let alone people with no more anatomical or forensic knowledge than a layman like me.

Agree.



Steve

[Abby Normal]

All. Good discussion and great research-learning a lot.


We still need to keep in mind though that the blood and breathing evidence does not exonerate lechmere at all. All it says is she COULD HAVE been killled much earlier than when lech discovered her. But we also know that the ripper goal was to remove organs and the ripper didn't get there yet with Polly probably because he was disturbed.

So in all likelihood lech disturbed the killer who fled IMHO. BUT...but.... the only evidence shows that there was only one person who was seen near the body and that was lech. i know if I were a cop I would want to take a good long hard at lech that's for sure.

I know fish can be rather passionate shall we say about the discussion, but I think we need to keep all this in mind. Lech is not exonerated by it.

[Elamarna]

All. Good discussion and great research-learning a lot.


We still need to keep in mind though that the blood and breathing evidence does not exonerate lechmere at all. All it says is she COULD HAVE been killled much earlier than when lech discovered her. But we also know that the ripper goal was to remove organs and the ripper didn't get there yet with Polly probably because he was disturbed.

So in all likelihood lech disturbed the killer who fled IMHO. BUT...but.... the only evidence shows that there was only one person who was seen near the body and that was lech. i know if I were a cop I would want to take a good long hard at lech that's for sure.

I know fish can be rather passionate shall we say about the discussion, but I think we need to keep all this in mind. Lech is not exonerated by it.

I agree 100% Abby..

What it does at most is suggest that some of the supporting arguments which have been used may not be as strong as some think they are. Too be fair to Christer I do not recall him using the reports of breathing as such.

Steve

[Abby Normal]

I agree 100% Abby..

What it does at most is suggest that some of the supporting arguments which have been used may not be as strong as some think they are. Too be fair to Christer I do not recall him using the reports of breathing as such.

Steve

Absolutely el. And I have enjoyed your research on the matter. Looking forward to the rest!

[Elamarna]

Absolutely el. And I have enjoyed your research on the matter. Looking forward to the rest!

Don't get too excite the next part is almost as dry as the first. At that point all the information will be up and I really hope to get some good comments and views back to help with part 3. That should produce some passionate replies.

After this I have decided to do Mitre Square in the same manner. Mainly because of the good work by Gavin Bromley on the beats or Harvey and Watkins.
I have some interesting ideas, it will be good to see if they stand up to scrutiny at all.

Of course this all started to test Fisherman's view that the abdomen wounds may have come first. It just sort of spiralled.

As things stand I have several hypothesis on several issues some I think are proven, some are not yet fully tested.
Some may need to be reassed in the little of some recent debates and anything which may come from part 3.



Cheers

Steve

[Rainbow]

All. Good discussion and great research-learning a lot.


We still need to keep in mind though that the blood and breathing evidence does not exonerate lechmere at all. All it says is she COULD HAVE been killled much earlier than when lech discovered her. But we also know that the ripper goal was to remove organs and the ripper didn't get there yet with Polly probably because he was disturbed.

So in all likelihood lech disturbed the killer who fled IMHO. BUT...but.... the only evidence shows that there was only one person who was seen near the body and that was lech. i know if I were a cop I would want to take a good long hard at lech that's for sure.

I know fish can be rather passionate shall we say about the discussion, but I think we need to keep all this in mind. Lech is not exonerated by it.

Thank you Abby as well..

Yes indeed, , It was one of the biggest mistake of Police in history!

For me, the breathing evidence is conclusive, Lechmere did it, he was Jack the Ripper, there was no place .. and no time for another killer whatsoever!

Lechmere was Jack the Ripper!

I am interested more now to know if any of the letters was authentic.

[Elamarna]

Thank you Abby as well..

Yes indeed, , It was one of the biggest mistake of Police in history!

For me, the breathing evidence is conclusive, Lechmere did it, he was Jack the Ripper, there was no place .. and no time for another killer whatsoever!

Lechmere was Jack the Ripper!

I am interested more now to know if any of the letters was authentic.

Just repeating the breathing evidence is conclusive proves it of course!
Still ignoring the informed experts in favour of uninformed belief.

To say the there was no time for another killer is not backed by the evidence! It is merely intransigence and a lack of knowledge or a refusal to accept and use what is there.

Back the suggestion with facts, argue the case. If you cannot debate the issue other than to post the equivent of "strong and stable" there is no case. The suggestion in the absence of any evidence is unsupported belief.

Steve

[Fisherman]

I know fish can be rather passionate shall we say about the discussion.

You must be mistaking me for somebody else, Abby. A less passionate poster than me would be hard to find, methinks.

[Fisherman]

So! It seems we have left the worst behind, and we may move on to a bit more interesting matters. Good.

Letīs begin with Steve, who lays down - if I understand it correctly - that dead people with abdominal wounds severe enough to kill and with the neck cut to the bone can still breathe for several minutes.

Have I got you right on this point, Steve? Or are you saying that dead people can breathe for several minutes, no damage defined?

[Fisherman]

One more for Steve - no, I have not stated that Paul discerned any breathing. I am not sure that he discerned anything at all, but if he did, I would not rule out that it was some sort of a twitch or something. Either way, if he DID feel something, it goes to tell us that death was not far distant.

[Fisherman]

Abby - I very much agree that none of the material that has been presented here does in any way detract from how Lechmere fits the bill timewise.

Steve - you mumble about how it seems true that Lechmere was close by as Nichols died, but maybe not as close as "some" will have it.

Do you have anything that in any way indicates that Lechmere was NOT close enough to be the killer?

[Rainbow]

Paul said he detected a movement as of Breath but very faint

First These are words that Paul gave in the inquest, I am not going to discard them whatever others will try to.

Second, it must be faint, if he said she was breathing, I will not believe him, the last movement of air in her lungs must be faint, and this is exactly the expected statement.

[ohrocky]

Patrick - thank you for #595.

It has always been my belief that the "carman" gave the name Cross for a reason that day. He may have used Cross at work. Maybe his step-father had a hand in him obtaining the position and introduced Charles as "Cross". And that was the name he continued to use at work.

When questioned by Mizen he gave the name Cross expecting that if the police needed further information from him later that day, they would track him down to his place of work where he was known, and always had been, by the name Cross.

Now we don't know for sure that was the case as Pickford's records have long been destroyed, but would this not be a more than reasonable explanation for him using Cross when speaking with Mizen?