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Lechmere/Cross "name issue" Part 2

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  • #31
    Thanks to all for the kind comments and, Joshua, yes, exactly.

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    • #32
      Thanks to David for proving the blindingly obvious: that people sometimes use alternative names.

      I didnít trawl through every example provided, but those I did read were cases where both names were disclosed. How is that at all relevant to the Cross/Lechmere case?




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      • #33
        Just a few of DOís examples:


        deceased commonly went by the name of Slack

        or as he is more commonly known, George Harding

        or Cox, as he was sometimes called

        Phillip Maine, alias Pallot

        her husband had gone by the name of Maine, that being the name of his stepfather

        he had taken the name of his step-father, which was Taylor

        We are sorry to record the death of Charles Taylor (whose real name is, however, Jones)

        John Mason, a putter at Cassop pit, charged with having absented himself from his employment

        Grandfather; I bought up and christened him. His name is John Grant. Mr Hays: How has he acquired the name of Mason? Is that the name of his stepfather? Grandfather: Yes sir

        but he was known by the name of Grey - the name of his stepfather

        a young man named Henry Hawke, but familiarly known by the name of his stepfather, Lakey

        he was known in Hull as Thomas Newton (which is the name of his step-father)


        In every example above it was thought appropriate to mention both names. Lechmere didnít mention the name he used in all his other dealings with officaldom. Did it not occur to him that it was appropriate to do so? I very much doubt it, so he must have chosen not to for some reason.





        Last edited by MrBarnett; 08-12-2019, 04:48 PM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
          Just a few of DOís examples:


          deceased commonly went by the name of Slack

          or as he is more commonly known, George Harding

          or Cox, as he was sometimes called

          Phillip Maine, alias Pallot

          her husband had gone by the name of Maine, that being the name of his stepfather

          he had taken the name of his step-father, which was Taylor

          We are sorry to record the death of Charles Taylor (whose real name is, however, Jones)

          John Mason, a putter at Cassop pit, charged with having absented himself from his employment

          Grandfather; I bought up and christened him. His name is John Grant. Mr Hays: How has he acquired the name of Mason? Is that the name of his stepfather? Grandfather: Yes sir

          but he was known by the name of Grey - the name of his stepfather

          a young man named Henry Hawke, but familiarly known by the name of his stepfather, Lakey

          he was known in Hull as Thomas Newton (which is the name of his step-father)


          In every example above it was thought appropriate to mention both names. Lechmere didnít mention the name he used in all his other dealings with officaldom. Did it not occur to him that it was appropriate to do so? I very much doubt it, so he must have chosen not to for some reason.




          hi Gary
          yes stellar work from David as usual and thanks for the follow up.

          For me though its not a question of if lech could have had/gone by two different names, which obviously he did, and theres nothing amiss there. Its that on one hand, everything we have documented on record he went by Lechmere, and yet here in the murder case he chose to use the cross name. (and also, apparently not to inform anyone he had another name).

          Personally I think theres probably an innocent explanation-namely when he started work at Pickfords he was still under the auspices of his step father Cross, so went by that name at work and continued to do so. later reverting back to his birth name for everything else but Cross at work. And with the Nichols case, everything related to him as a witness-a carman on his way to work, he chose to use that name. and or he chose to use cross to keep him/his family (and what everyone else knew him by)Lechmere name out of the press. this reason also has an innocent explanation of course-he simply didn't want to get involved or be harassed by the press as much as possible.

          but of course the suspicious explanation, is he used cross, because he was the killer and didn't want anyone(friends, family etc) to know he was remotely involved in a murder case, perhaps lest they put two and two together, if they had known of any other suspicious activity by him and come forward.

          now of course, I lean toward my former innocent explanation, but nevertheless it is yet another discrepancy with Lech that does need an explanation.

          Last edited by Abby Normal; 08-12-2019, 05:55 PM.
          "Is all that we see or seem
          but a dream within a dream?"

          -Edgar Allan Poe


          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

          -Frederick G. Abberline

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
            but of course the suspicious explanation, is he used cross, because he was the killer and didn't want anyone(friends, family etc) to know he was remotely involved in a murder case, perhaps lest they put two and two together, if they had known of any other suspicious activity by him and come forward.
            Even though the home address & place of work could be used to identify him?

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            • #36


              If you research a little further you will find that the name in which a person was registered at birth, and which revealed their paternal ancestry, was commonly considered their Ďrealí or Ďproperí name. Thatís why you find so many examples of people who had gone by an assumed name for decades deeming it appropriate to reveal their birth name in a court of law or in some other dealing with authority (example above).

              In one case I found, a hampshire lodger voter was refused the vote, and believing it was because he had given his assumed name (his stepfatherís) he tried again with what he considered was his Ďrightí name (his birth fatherís). He was refused again, the problem having nothing to do with the names but with the manís residence qualification. However, the barrister overseeing the process commented that Ďit was queer, and he did not approve of a man having two namesí.

              The point Iím making is that whatever the legality of using an alternative name may have been, it was not the norm, and it was expected that when dealing with the authorities a person should either use their Ďrealí name or disclose that the name they were using was an assumed one. Charles Lechmere chose not to.
              Last edited by MrBarnett; 08-13-2019, 09:50 AM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                Even though the home address & place of work could be used to identify him?
                And this is the crux as you rightly point out Harry. Why not give a different home and work address? What is Lech guilty of if he followed that course of action and he was found at a later date? He has done his duty by finding a policeman. All he has done is simply come across a dead body, no blood, no weapon. He could simply tell the authorities he didn't want to get involved or he was scared to.
                You either tell the whole truth, name address and workplace and hope to get away with it or you simply try and disappear by giving them all the wrong personal info, [probably the latter].
                Regards Darryl
                Last edited by Darryl Kenyon; 08-13-2019, 09:56 AM.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                  Even though the home address & place of work could be used to identify him?
                  I find it difficult to believe that it would not have occurred to Lechmere that he should disclose his Ďrealí name in a coronerís court.





                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                    Even though the home address & place of work could be used to identify him?
                    hi harry
                    the thinking on this is that hes not trying to evade police or not be Ided-but hes just trying to keep his more commonly used name out of the picture.
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                      hi harry
                      the thinking on this is that hes not trying to evade police or not be Ided-but hes just trying to keep his more commonly used name out of the picture.
                      But it doesn't make sense, Abby. Are you saying that friends and family wouldn't connect the Charlie Cross who worked at Pickford's and lived at 22 Doveton Street with the Charlie Lechmere who worked at Pickford's and lived at 22 Doveton Street?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                        hi harry
                        the thinking on this is that hes not trying to evade police or not be Ided-but hes just trying to keep his more commonly used name out of the picture.
                        hi abby

                        my thinking is that it may have been the Lechmere name he was protecting.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post

                          And this is the crux as you rightly point out Harry. Why not give a different home and work address?

                          Regards Darryl
                          Arguably because he could harbor a well grounded hope that the police would look favorably on it if he was investigated and found to be named Lechmere: "You see, I had a stepfather called Cross, and I want to honor him, so I call myself by that name every now and then".

                          It would check out if investigated - he DID have a Cross stepfather.

                          But what if he said that he lived in Rotten Row and worked for the tax ministry and THAT was checked out?

                          This is why I say that it all can be interpreted as if he took an evasion as far as he possibly could without being totally reckless: He gave a name that may well have kept him hidden, it seems he may have abstained from supplying his work address (one paper only got it, possibly by way of a clerk) and that would have been as far as he could take things without gambling dangerously hard.

                          Just like Abby points out, the police was given his real address, but it seems he may have tried to keep it from press and public.

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