The Lechmere/Cross "name issue"

[Darryl Kenyon]

Cross felt one of the deceased's hands and finding it cold, said "I think she is dead",[note think].
Paul felt her face and hands and said "I think she's breathing but it's very little if she is". He thought she may be dead,[note he thought, not said]. in other words Cross thinks that Paul thinks she is still alive.
Now if i was Jack i would say " Yeah your probably right, just some drunk
sleeping it off". Go on my merry way with nothing to connect me [no policemen, no bloodied knife on my person, no bloodied hands etc] ,apart from a possible later ID by Paul. But assuming they found Lechmere, and they had suspicions against him. A man leaving home shortly before the murder and arriving at work shortly after, what evidence is that? He could easily change the timing so he left five minutes later or arrived five minutes earlier than he did, who would remember ?

[John Wheat]

Might PC Mizen have been at all suspicious of Cross and Paul? If so, could he have continued knocking up in part to make sure the pair weren't trying to distract him for some nefarious purpose?

Might PC Mizen have actually been an experienced police man fully capable of sussing out two witnesses who were probably in shock at the body they'd found? This Lechmere bullshit is becoming very tedious now.

[Joshua Rogan]

Might PC Mizen have been at all suspicious of Cross and Paul? If so, could he have continued knocking up in part to make sure the pair weren't trying to distract him for some nefarious purpose?

[John Wheat]

Lechmere killed all the Whitechapel Victims, Lechmere was The Thames Torso Killer, Lechmere Killed Sherlock Holmes etc. Get real there is nothing to suggest Lechmere was remotely violent let alone a killer. Wish people would spend less time looking at stupid suspects when WH Bury is clearly the best Ripper suspect by a several country miles. And yes Fisherman you have spent a great deal of time attempting and failing to fabricate a case against a clearly innocent man.

[Joshua Rogan]

I think he checked on Polly because he thought she might be a piece of discarded tarpaulin he might be able to use

I'm sure I read somewhere that the word tarpaulin could also refer to an overcoat made of tarpaulin cloth, which would potentially have been a more valuable find. Can anyone confirm, or did I just dream that?

[Bridewell]

How lucky was that?

Seriously, his continuing to "knock up" is possibly a reflection of his having heard enough tales of pavement-hugging probable drunks to have not put much urgency in investigating the situation.

Duties of a Constable (applicable to the Metropolitan Police at the time):

The Protection of Life and Property

The Maintenance of Order

The Prevention and Detection of Crime

The Prosecution of Offenders Against The Peace.

Mizen had no way of knowing why the woman was lying where she was, but had been told that she was either dead or drunk. She could, of course, have been ill or dying. There was no way of knowing without visiting the scene - which Mizen decided was not a priority. She was either dead, dying, drunk or ill. In fact, of course, she was dead - and a murder victim. He didn't know that - but only because he thought that the lucrative 'knocking-up' sideline was a higher priority than going to check the matter out.

[Patrick S]

How lucky was that?

Seriously, his continuing to "knock up" is possibly a reflection of his having heard enough tales of pavement-hugging probable drunks to have not put much urgency in investigating the situation.

I completely agree. I think it's safe to assume that during Mizen's years of service leading up to Buck's Row he'd seen far more drunks unconscious on the street than he had murdered prostitutes. Thus, I don't find his reaction damning (to Mizen himself) in the least. I think it's important to remember that Nichols was killed more than three weeks after Tabram (August 7) and it had been nearly six months since the attack on Emma Smith. No letters had been sent to police, press, etc. No one was talking about Leather Apron or Jack the Ripper. Mizen had been told of a woman lying in Buck's Row. He'd been told she was likely dead. He'd not been told of blood, a cut throat, disembowelment.

[Patrick S]

Which is exactly what lech wanted him to do!

So, let's discuss this a bit, Abby, this idea that Lechmere perpetrated this elaborate hoax, this charade to fool the good, noble, honorable, Christian, PC Jonas Mizen.

Lechmere WANTED Mizen to essentially ignore being told of "a woman lying" in Bucks Row. Let's first establish why he would want that. First, to get away with murdering Nichols. Second, so that he could remain a free man, to continue killing prostitutes, women, people, etc. Third, to remain alive to care for his family (Killer or not it's clear that Lechmere did care about the lives of his family in that we now - as FACT - that he DID work at Pickford's for 20+ years. He DID managed to well enough financially to move his family to a better address every few years. He DID manage to save enough to open a small shop upon retirement. He DID manage to leave his wife a sizable sum upon his death. He DID managed to raise 10 children to adulthood, all of whom refrained from lives of crime and became soldiers, clerks, shopkeepers, etc.).

So. How does Lechmere go about getting what he wants here (i.e. Mizen to not act upon the information of a woman "lying in Bucks Row"?

1. After killing and mutilating Nichols, upon hearing footsteps some 40 yards off, in the dark, he hides the knife in his coat, stands next to his victim, and forces the man (Paul - who tried to avoid him), to come see the woman.
2. He agrees to remain in the man's company until they find a policeman to tell what they'd found.
3. He remains in the man's company until the do, indeed, find a PC in Baker's Row (Mizen).
4. He tells the PC what he and the other man had seen in Buck's Row. He tells Mizen, "She looks to me to be either dead or drunk; but for my part I think she is dead." (Cross inquest testimony). Paul agrees on this, by the way. "I told him what I had seen, and I asked him to come, but he did not say whether he should come or not. He continued calling the people up, which I thought was a great shame, after I had told him the woman was dead.

So, unless I'm misinterpreting this, Lechmere's plan to get away was to tell EVERYONE he met about the woman he'd just killed, to be sure to mention that HE thought she was dead....and then (lest we forget) to show up at the inquest bright and early Monday morning to tell the coroner and jury all about it, too.

And this seems a reasonable plan to you?

[Darryl Kenyon]

I think he checked on Polly because he thought she might be a piece of discarded tarpaulin he might be able to use

[Abby Normal]

How lucky was that?

Seriously, his continuing to "knock up" is possibly a reflection of his having heard enough tales of pavement-hugging probable drunks to have not put much urgency in investigating the situation.

I agree.
It's a wonder lech even stopped to check on her.

[Sam Flynn]

Which is exactly what lech wanted him to do!

How lucky was that?

Seriously, his continuing to "knock up" is possibly a reflection of his having heard enough tales of pavement-hugging probable drunks to have not put much urgency in investigating the situation.

[Abby Normal]

>The policeman said, "All right," and then walked on.” <<

And, according to Xmere, he walked on away from Buck's Row to continue his knocking up.

Which is exactly what lech wanted him to do!

[drstrange169]

>The policeman said, "All right," and then walked on.” <<

And, according to Xmere, he walked on away from Buck's Row to continue his knocking up.

[drstrange169]

>Yes MS, he is far from the near perfect policeman that some like to portray him as. That is not to say he was a bad officer, just an ordinary one, who probably made as many mistakes as any other.<<

Not taking the names doesn't trouble me to much, but the police denial that he saw nobody of interest that night, troubles me greatly.

[Elamarna]

Mizen is a key to Christer's theory. I've posted several treatises on this subject in the past but it bears repeating, I think.

What do we actually know about Mizen's behavior upon being told this information? Let's listen to Robert Paul (Lloyds; September 2, 1888):

"I was obliged to be punctual at my work, so I went on and told the other man I would send the first policeman I saw. I saw one in Church-row, just at the top of Buck's-row, who was going round calling people up, and I told him what I had seen, and I asked him to come, but he did not say whether he should come or not. He continued calling the people up, which I thought was a great shame, after I had told him the woman was dead."

So we know that Paul was less than impressed with Mizen's actions. He calls it a "great shame" that he continued knocking people up. What else to know? Well, we know that Mizen did not detain the men. He did not ask them to return to Bucks Row and show him what they'd seen. He did not even ask the men their names. In fact, Cross summed up their encounter with Mizen at the inquest: "She looks to me to be either dead or drunk; but for my part I think she is dead." The policeman said, "All right," and then walked on.”

So both men tell us Mizen was less than concerned. In that he didn't take names, didn't ask the men ANY follow-up questions it would seem that Mizen didn't take the information all that seriously.

And of course if it can be shown that his testimony on the course of events in Bucks Row is either misinterpreted, inaccurate or just downright dishonest, it will obviously have a serious effect on how we interpret and asses the testimony of the earlier events when he met by Paul and Lechmere.

I believe that the posts made last weekend, which looked at how viable and reliable his comments were on the actual events in Bucks row, showed that the above may be the case.



Steve