Lechmere in Mitre Square

[Pierre]

I´m sorer than a squirrel caught between the fronts of two Landrovers violating the speed limit, Patrick, that´s why I always defend myself in these situations.
Thanks for clarifying and sorry for whining...

Yes. You certainly have your own Cross to bear.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Fisherman;402829]

Pierre of course forgot the 1873 torso case, the 1874 torso case, the 1884 Totteham torso case, the 1887 Rainham case and Martha Tabram.

Thank heavens he is not a historian!

I do not include those cases in this case. You do.

So I am not forgetting them. It is you who think you remember something when there is nothing to remember.

There is no data indicating that Lechmere killed anyone of all those.

[jerryd]

[QUOTE=Pierre;402828]

And you say it just like that:



And the rest =

Chapman.
Stride.
Eddowes.
Kelly.
The Whitehall case.
Jackson.
McKenzie.
Pinchin Street case.

And yet you have not one single source for anyone of those. No indication Lechmere was there.

Thank heavens you are not an historian.

Regards, Pierre

Sounds like your story Pierre. Not one single source. At least not one provided on this forum. But you add the extra element of no name. At least Christer can provide a name and place his suspect near the scene of one of the murders.

[Fisherman]

[QUOTE=Pierre;402833]

I do not include those cases in this case. You do.

And now he thinks HE is the one to define which murders I include in "the rest".

A true historian if I ever saw one.

[jerryd]

[QUOTE=Fisherman;402835]

And now he thinks HE is the one to define which murders I include in "the rest".

A true historian if I ever saw one.

Remember Christer, Pierre will be in BIG trouble with the source fairies if he let's them down. He is very troubled that the fairies asked him to be the one to have to bear the cross of knowing who the ripper was. That's a HUGE burden on anyone, you know? How could the source fairies be so mean?

[Fisherman]

[QUOTE=jerryd;402836]

Remember Christer, Pierre will be in BIG trouble with the source fairies if he let's them down. He is very troubled that the fairies asked him to be the one to have to bear the cross of knowing who the ripper was. That's a HUGE burden on anyone, you know? How could the source fairies be so mean?

I mainly object to the fairies´ choice of messenger, Jerry. Out of all people they could have handed us ...

[Patrick S]

Someone help me out. I've spent some time recently tracking Lechmere's likely route to work from his home in Doveton Street to Pickford's in Broad Street. While I know this has been done and presented several times, I like to do and see things for myself. To me it appears as if the murders of Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly were committed within an area bookended by his home address and his place of employment. All these murders were committed to the north of Whitechapel Road / Aldgate High Street.

[GUT]

Sounds like your story Pierre. Not one single source. At least not one provided on this forum. But you add the extra element of no name. At least Christer can provide a name and place his suspect near the scene of one of the murders.

And that's why I respect the one, not the other.

[Pierre]

Someone help me out. I've spent some time recently tracking Lechmere's likely route to work from his home in Doveton Street to Pickford's in Broad Street. While I know this has been done and presented several times, I like to do and see things for myself. To me it appears as if the murders of Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly were committed within an area bookended by his home address and his place of employment. All these murders were committed to the north of Whitechapel Road / Aldgate High Street.

Hi Patrick,

What is it that you want help with?

Regards, Pierre

[Fisherman]

Someone help me out. I've spent some time recently tracking Lechmere's likely route to work from his home in Doveton Street to Pickford's in Broad Street. While I know this has been done and presented several times, I like to do and see things for myself. To me it appears as if the murders of Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly were committed within an area bookended by his home address and his place of employment. All these murders were committed to the north of Whitechapel Road / Aldgate High Street.

The issue has been debated with some heat over the years. Edward Stow has walked the routes and timed them on a number of occasions, and arrived at the conclusion that the Old Montague Street route occupied slightly - but only slightly - less time than the Hanbury Street route. Basically, the two routes offered more or less the same time frame, and would have been interchangable in terms of being the best route to work.
These two streets were the options given after leaving Bucks Row. They were the arteries through the area. There were options after leaving Bucks Row to turn into the side streets and criss-cross your way through the area, but it would cost time in almost any instance. One exception to the rule was the Dorset Street short cut - ironically enough found and presented by poster Ben, who has always done his very best to pooh-pooh the theory - where I think the general idea was to use Hanbury Street-Princelet Street-Brick Lane-Fournier Street-Commercial Street-Dorset Street and from there on to Broad Street.
It has been argued that there is no evidence that Lechmere ever used Old Montague Street (it has even been suggested that he would not dare, since it was crime-infested...), and my answer to that is that it was:
A/ Seemingly the shortest route.
B/ The route he would have grown up in close proximity to, whereas Hanbury Street was further away from his haunts in St Georges.
C/ Only the site of one murder, that of Tabram, who was slain a stone´s throw from it - and Tabram was always very contentious as a Ripper victim. All the C5 victims who died along Lechmere´s working routes (Nichols, Chapman and Kelly), died along the Hanbury Street route or the short cut from it, via Dorset Street.

Hope that helps.

[Pierre]

The issue has been debated with some heat over the years. Edward Stow has walked the routes and timed them on a number of occasions, and arrived at the conclusion that the Old Montague Street route occupied slightly - but only slightly - less time than the Hanbury Street route. Basically, the two routes offered more or less the same time frame, and would have been interchangable in terms of being the best route to work.
These two streets were the options given after leaving Bucks Row. They were the arteries through the area. There were options after leaving Bucks Row to turn into the side streets and criss-cross your way through the area, but it would cost time in almost any instance. One exception to the rule was the Dorset Street short cut - ironically enough found and presented by poster Ben, who has always done his very best to pooh-pooh the theory - where I think the general idea was to use Hanbury Street-Princelet Street-Brick Lane-Fournier Street-Commercial Street-Dorset Street and from there on to Broad Street.
It has been argued that there is no evidence that Lechmere ever used Old Montague Street (it has even been suggested that he would not dare, since it was crime-infested...), and my answer to that is that it was:
A/ Seemingly the shortest route.
B/ The route he would have grown up in close proximity to, whereas Hanbury Street was further away from his haunts in St Georges.
C/ Only the site of one murder, that of Tabram, who was slain a stone´s throw from it - and Tabram was always very contentious as a Ripper victim. All the C5 victims who died along Lechmere´s working routes (Nichols, Chapman and Kelly), died along the Hanbury Street route or the short cut from it, via Dorset Street.

Hope that helps.

How many individuals lived and/or worked in Hanbury Street, Dorset Street, Doveton Street and in all the other streets in this area?

[Patrick S]

The issue has been debated with some heat over the years. Edward Stow has walked the routes and timed them on a number of occasions, and arrived at the conclusion that the Old Montague Street route occupied slightly - but only slightly - less time than the Hanbury Street route. Basically, the two routes offered more or less the same time frame, and would have been interchangable in terms of being the best route to work.
These two streets were the options given after leaving Bucks Row. They were the arteries through the area. There were options after leaving Bucks Row to turn into the side streets and criss-cross your way through the area, but it would cost time in almost any instance. One exception to the rule was the Dorset Street short cut - ironically enough found and presented by poster Ben, who has always done his very best to pooh-pooh the theory - where I think the general idea was to use Hanbury Street-Princelet Street-Brick Lane-Fournier Street-Commercial Street-Dorset Street and from there on to Broad Street.
It has been argued that there is no evidence that Lechmere ever used Old Montague Street (it has even been suggested that he would not dare, since it was crime-infested...), and my answer to that is that it was:
A/ Seemingly the shortest route.
B/ The route he would have grown up in close proximity to, whereas Hanbury Street was further away from his haunts in St Georges.
C/ Only the site of one murder, that of Tabram, who was slain a stone´s throw from it - and Tabram was always very contentious as a Ripper victim. All the C5 victims who died along Lechmere´s working routes (Nichols, Chapman and Kelly), died along the Hanbury Street route or the short cut from it, via Dorset Street.

Hope that helps.

It does. I'm less concerned with specific routes than an overall picture. That is to say that when I map this out I have 22 Doveton Street as the furthest point east, Pickfords in Broad Street as the point furthest west, with George Yard (Gunthorpe Street) Buck's Row (Duward Street), Hanbury Street, Mitre Square, Berner Street (Henriques Street) and Dorset Street (White's Row), between them.

[Fisherman]

It does. I'm less concerned with specific routes than an overall picture. That is to say that when I map this out I have 22 Doveton Street as the furthest point east, Pickfords in Broad Street as the point furthest west, with George Yard (Gunthorpe Street) Buck's Row (Duward Street), Hanbury Street, Mitre Square, Berner Street (Henriques Street) and Dorset Street (White's Row), between them.

Yes, that´s true enough. If one wants to, Castle Alley fits in too.
The largest deviation is the Eddowes and the Stride site, somewhat further south. In the docu, Gareth Norris made a triangle from the points Doveton Street-Broad Street-Cable Street, and it encompassed the sites nicely. We know now that Lechmere´s mother did not live in Cable Street in September of 1888 but instead in Mary Ann Street, but the altered triangle holds roughly true just the same, Mitre Square falling only slightly outside.

[Pierre]

Yes, that´s true enough. If one wants to, Castle Alley fits in too.

OK. So it is a game. I see.

[Patrick S]

How many individuals lived and/or worked in Hanbury Street, Dorset Street, Doveton Street and in all the other streets in this area?

I doubt Fisherman will take the bait but I will, and the answer is obvious. Thousands. Tens of thousands. Fisherman has presented a theory. He believes in it. He fights for it. We can agree with it. We can disagree. I've come to realize two things: First, it's just as unlikely that Lechmere will be proven to have been Jack the Ripper as it is that it will be proven that he was not Jack the Ripper; and second, if one (myself specifically) can stop trying to focus on proving someone else wrong, PROVING something that probably can never be PROVEN, then we can focus on increasing our knowledge and understanding of the crimes, the victims, the witness, the "suspects", the police, 1888 London, and the people who lived there through these conversations.

Perhaps as if you had given us a name when you proclaimed "I have found him" with your first post we'd ALL be much more educated in all of these aspects of the case. I know perfectly well that I'm better versed in all things JtR because of my discourse with Fisherman, and making the effort to understand what he has presented here. I doubt that anyone can say the same for their discourse with you, what YOU have presented. Perhaps that will change one day. Although, like most here, I doubt it.