Alternative kosminski family

[Elamarna]

Hi All

I remember that when Mr Begg wrote "The uncensored facts" back in 1987, he spent a fair amount of time talking about another Kosminski family.

Was any more research done on this at all?

many thanks

elamarnat

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi All

I remember that when Mr Begg wrote "The uncensored facts" back in 1987, he spent a fair amount of time talking about another Kosminski family.

Was any more research done on this at all?

many thanks

elamarnat

Hi Elamarnat and Happy New Year

I'm not quiet sure but are you talking about the Zina Shine connection?

I believe Richard Jones first interviewed Zina Shine who was convinced she was related to Aaron Kozminski but this has since proved to be incorrect.

But thats the only other Kozminski connection I'm aware of... Although for years people have been suggesting that Aaron Kozminski was not the same Kozminski referred to by Anderson and MacNaughten and there have been hints of researchers following other leads

To my knowledge no one has ever done so and after all this time and research I believe the only explanation for the source discrepancies are simple...

There were simply two separate events that relate to the same suspect. One upto March 1889 and a second event in late 1890 or early 1891.

I noted today on another forum was written the following in Reids response to the ripper question:

'Have you the remotest idea who or what the man was?'

'He was a vulgar man: that is, he was no scientist or medical man - not even a butcher - I should say, from the same clumsiness displayed in his frenzied work in each case. I have always believed that he lived somewhere in the neighbourhood of Berner Street. The first of the murders was in that district, and everyone was committed within a radius of quarter of a mile of the Princess Alice public house in Commercial Street. All of the women lived in that district, and so i believe did the murderer'

Frankly it seems to far a stretch of the imagination that this is not a reference to the man followed by Cox and Sagar. Cox followed a suspect from his own little shop, which I believe around the corner to the Princess Alice...possibly the junction of Wentworth Street and Castle Ally

...and almost certainly fits what is now known about Aaron Kozminski

Yours Jeff

[Elamarna]

thanks Jeff that’s interesting, but that is not what i meant,

in the uncensored facts, Paul gave a fair amount of space to a Martin K.

i seem to remember there was a possible link to one of the 3 men who saw the couple.
having not read the book for a few years i can't remember
i assume this went nowhere

steve

[Jeff Leahy]

thanks Jeff that’s interesting, but that is not what i meant,

in the uncensored facts, Paul gave a fair amount of space to a Martin K.

i seem to remember there was a possible link to one of the 3 men who saw the couple.
having not read the book for a few years i can't remember
i assume this went nowhere

steve

Hi Steve

Martin Kozminski was connected to Josephy Levy one of the three men who witnessed a man and woman outside church passage shortly before Eddows Murder.

Its been suggested that press men believe Levy saw more than he was willing to divulge, possibly because he recognised the man as connected to Martin as a relative.... I don't believe a firm connection has ever been made, however Martin Kozminski was also from Kalisch province of Poland, and Levy signed his papers as British citizen....so they were connected.

Karsten Geise has done considerable research into the residents of Aaron's Home town Klodova, suggesting that there was a net work of people, remember Anderson talks of 'His people'

Its been suggested that the community had connections to Butchers row

Again...'He occupied several premisses'

But to my knowledge no direct connection has ever been made to Levy via Martin to Aaron, but I'm happy to be corrected if Karsten is about, I think more interesting recently was the soloman connection to Abberline and the Kalisch community, mapping the community and there various businesses is certain interesting in figuring out where Aaron might have had access, especially if you believe as I do that Aaron operated as some sort of odd job man or night watchman rather than practice a specific trade. Aaron grand father was a butcher (off shoot being leather but also ofal which could give a connection to pet food and slaughter houses....Hanbury street sold pet food, bucks row slaughter houses but also connection to Butchers Row)

The other interesting area for research is 'Cohen' this was the name adopted by his sisters husband and of course Jacob Cohen who shared a business with him, also the name Davies was used (So when checking Private Asylum Records Cohen, Davies and Kozminski might all be connected or used by Aaron and his family- was there confusion with David Cohen?)

Maurice K (labroski) was a Boot maker. And there are early references to Leather Apron as the Mad Snob... Snob being the trade of a boot maker.

It seems logical that Jacob Cohen was a near relative and may have been involved in an earlier business. Cox talks about a man who occupied a small shop.. (possible junction of Wentworth and Castle Ally)

Oh and off the top of my head there were also Kozminski's living in the flats where the Goulston Street graffiti was discovered but again no direct connection, to my knowledge has ever been discovered.

Yours Jeff

PS There is an entry on Martin Kozminski in the A to Z update, which adds no further information

[Elamarna]

thanks Jeff,

that was the sort of thing i was looking for.

steve

[wolfie1]

another Kosminski family

thanks Jeff,

that was the sort of thing i was looking for.

steve

Hello, I know of another Kosminski family that ripper researchers have not researched in depth. Not Cohen, not Martin etc.

This Kosminski family lived at Chicksand St 1888 1891 , the street near Flower and Dean St. Chicksand St is also identified as within the geographic circle profiled by other researchers.

My previous posts have detailed this family.

To date I have not heard any evidence to discount this family from potential links to either Aaron Kosminki or any other Kosminski family known to have lived in Whitechapel at that time.


I do not know what links, if any, this family will have with Beggs theory of another Jewish family that fits the known profile.

The desc of this man have changed their surname and do not wish to have contact with researchers.

Names and details of this family are searchable via my other posts.

PM if you require further information.

[Elamarna]

Hello, I know of another Kosminski family that ripper researchers have not researched in depth. Not Cohen, not Martin etc.

This Kosminski family lived at Chicksand St 1888 1891 , the street near Flower and Dean St. Chicksand St is also identified as within the geographic circle profiled by other researchers.

My previous posts have detailed this family.

To date I have not heard any evidence to discount this family from potential links to either Aaron Kosminki or any other Kosminski family known to have lived in Whitechapel at that time.


I do not know what links, if any, this family will have with Beggs theory of another Jewish family that fits the known profile.

The desc of this man have changed their surname and do not wish to have contact with researchers.

Names and details of this family are searchable via my other posts.

PM if you require further information.

Hi

thank you, i will have a look.

Steve

[Errata]

People tend to have certain kinds of surnames, the most popular being place names, profession names, and rank names. It's why there are so many Bakers and Taylors out there. They were all at one point bakers or tailors. Most Jews have these kind of names as well. Schrieber, Schneider, Goldstein, Levi or Levy, Cohen, Kaminsky, Schulman.

Kosminski is a place name. Kosmin, I think maybe is in the Ukraine? Maybe Western Germany? Maybe both? Any name with -ski at the end of it essentially means "from". So Kosminski is from Kosmin. So there would be several unrelated families with this last name, and borders get crazy in that region the further back you go, but it was a region with a reasonable population of Jews, most of whom ended up in the Pale. And those in the Pale ended up in either London or New York, later Galveston of all places. So it's entirely possible that was another unrelated family named Kosminski in London at that time.

[Elamarna]

point taken, but if we work from the idea we are looking for "kos" something as a suspect, eliminating non starters is obviously a good move, it means no detours at a later date to check out.

s

[wolfie1]

point taken, but if we work from the idea we are looking for "kos" something as a suspect, eliminating non starters is obviously a good move, it means no detours at a later date to check out.

s

As an on again, off again, poster on this forum I have been somewhat bemused by the reluctance of some to totally discount any other Kosminski family or persons, simply because they are not associated with Aaron K.

The police did not provide a first name, only surname. Others have made the suspect fit the facts.

As a researcher in another field of history I am well aware that mistakes are made, facts overlooked. One comment made years ago could be forgotten over time, yet that one comment published in a dusty old book, could well be the breakthrough clue that no one believes simply because it is an older comment from a long dead author.

New texts and laying of 'clues and meaning' over the years have enabled theorists to develop an industry of books, personalities and an entire industry built on the certain fact that everyone wants to solve the case, yet no one will let the case be solved.... and so the JTR industry continues to spin.

My only interest in this case is not as a Ripperologist but as a personal link to the Kosminski name and for my own family's sake, I would be more than pleased to have anyone other than a Kosminski or Kaminsky named as JTR.

[Aldebaran]

Who was Martin Kosminski?

[Robert]

As regards Kosminskis in general, Scott Nelson is pretty clued up about them. He has for instance mentioned Isaac Kosminski, who was living in Goulston St in 1891.

Martin was a furrier. Chris George wrote an article about him for Ripperologist #42, but it doesn't seem to be online. I'm sure he'd send it to anyone interested.

[Aldebaran]

Thanks. The reason I asked is that I found a Martin Kosminski at about the same time as the murders living in the West End and attending the Central Synagogue. His was not a bad address and I could find no connection for him to the Kosminski/Abrahams family living in the Whitechapel district. And yet a Martin Kosminski came up in this thread.

[Robert]

To judge from the electoral registers, Martin started off in Shoreditch and worked his way up via Islington to the west end (living at Berners Street in the west rather than Berner Street in the east). His daughter Jessie made a name for herself in the world of music.

Martin Kosminski was linked to Levy, but no other connection between him and the Ripper case is known.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-ckl.html

[Aldebaran]

To judge from the electoral registers, Martin started off in Shoreditch and worked his way up via Islington to the west end (living at Berners Street in the west rather than Berner Street in the east). His daughter Jessie made a name for herself in the world of music.

Martin Kosminski was linked to Levy, but no other connection between him and the Ripper case is known.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-ckl.html

Thanks, Robert. You are a rock star! This is from the dissertation:

"I suggest that after using Lawende in the attempt to identify Sadler, the police learned from Lawende that Levy knew more than he’d revealed. In all probability Lawende was irate at the time of the Sadler identification because of the police pressure he experienced over the past two years and wanted an end to it. I think that Levy had probably recognized the man seen with the woman at the passage, knew him as someone who worked in Butcher’s Row and knew him to be related to Martin Kosminski. Not wanting to implicate Martin Kosminski, he’d refused to give evidence in 1888. In 1891 he is contacted and taken to see a suspect. He recognizes the man, but refuses to give evidence. He then decides to get away and moves."

That's the relevant passage, to save someone else time. A man named George Hutchinson, a friend of Mary Kelly, claimed to have seen her disappear with a well-dressed man, who looked Jewish and was carrying a parcel. This man had a " thick gold chain" on his person, probably his watch chain. That's a bit prosperous for Aaron Kosminski! After that, Kelly was seen again, but the opinion is she ought to have been dead by the time Caroline Maxwell and Maurice Lewis spotted her. Can they both have been mistaken? And, yet, only one of them, the man, could possibly have had a reason to lie as to when he had seen her on the day she was discovered. Any chance of Lewis being a suspect?