When did Aaron Koz come to Police attention?

[Jeff Leahy]

Another problem is that, while Schwartz and Lawende describe a Gentile, Mrs Long and Hutchinson describe a Jew/foreigner. For them all to have been the same man - and Kosminski - the latter would need to appear Jewish to a Gentile and Gentile to a Jew. Would clothing alone suffice to achieve that end? More to the point, would Kosminski be sufficiently lucid to carry out the deception?

I don't think it possible to tell whether someone is Jewish or gentile simply by looking at them… its more probable that we are dealing with Hutchinsons and Mrs Longs personal prejudice.

Aaron Kozmisnki was polish, his DNA is more probably of Polish decent.

On how lucid Aaron was, its clear that he was thought well enough to be released from the work House after four days in July 1890. Schizophrenia is a cyclical illness that typifies periods of recovery and Psychotic episodes…So its quite possible for sufferers to be highly functional during the early stages and attacks.

Yours Jeff

[John G]

Hi Jeff,

Sorry I forgot to include the refernce for respective Victorian salaries, i.e. surgeon, barrister:http://www.wirksworth.org.uk/A04VALUE.htm#1710

[Abby Normal]

Presumably a file was created on Kozminski which has since disappeared.

This was the file MacNaughten referenced in 1894. And Griffiths comments on in 1895.

However the simple solution to why the Murders stop in March 1889. (Also when Woolfe moves to Yalford Street as he has to tighten his belt) Is that the family put Aaron away not the police.

That would explain why the ID takes place and a convalescent Home belonging to a private asylum. Possibly Holloway or Bethlam.

Yours Jeff

Thanks Jeff
Regardless of a missing file, which I guess could explain why no mention of his name in the record until many years, then why would the ID still take so long to perform (years?) from Oct 88, when they have his name and a clue?

When are you proposing the ID took place and whats your general timeline re all the events surrounding Kosminski-including his stints in the workhouse and asylum, possible surveillance by Cox, ID mentioned by Anderson/swanson, etc.?

Just let me preface this by saying that I have read Robs book and seen your doc(both which are excellent) and think that Kosminski is one of a handful of suspects that I find viable.

If you could provide a quick thumbnail timeline on your take of the events surrounding Kosminski it would be very interesting and much appreciated!!!

[John G]

I don't think it can be ruled out. If Aaron was questioned on the 14thOct he went to ground for some time explaining the delay in the murders. He may have deliberately changed his appearance following Schwartz and Lawendes descriptions.

In Robs book he lists a burglary at Woolfes house where a Watch and chain are hidden under his bed…at the police station the watch is described as Silver…quite a rich prize for poor Eastend Tailors, as would Isacs income of £40 a week described on the following page..

Yours Jeff

Hello Jeff,

£40 a week! Was he a member of the aristocracy? That would have been an enormous income for the period. To put things into perspective a highly paid clerk working for a stockbroking firm would earn less than £5 per week in 1890: see http://www.academia.edu/3710075/Work...lerk_revisited By further comparison in 1891 the average annual salary of a surgeon was £475.47, and a barrister £1342.60:

Could it perhaps be £40 per year?

[Bridewell]

Its a problem. There are many. Schwartz and Lawendes man is closer to 28. Although the height might fit.

That said and somewhere I have a description of Jewish Eastend Taylors going on a march ending in Berner street around March 1889. They are all described as appearing old before their time. This is a stressful environment.

We also have the description of Shabbey Gentiel given by Mrs Long. Descriptions are notoriously poor. Make of them what you will. Are they all describing the same man?

Yours Jeff

Another problem is that, while Schwartz and Lawende describe a Gentile, Mrs Long and Hutchinson describe a Jew/foreigner. For them all to have been the same man - and Kosminski - the latter would need to appear Jewish to a Gentile and Gentile to a Jew. Would clothing alone suffice to achieve that end? More to the point, would Kosminski be sufficiently lucid to carry out the deception?

[Jeff Leahy]

Hutchinsons man is age 34-35.

Kozminski was 23.

Its a problem. There are many. Schwartz and Lawendes man is closer to 28. Although the height might fit.

That said and somewhere I have a description of Jewish Eastend Taylors going on a march ending in Berner street around March 1889. They are all described as appearing old before their time. This is a stressful environment.

We also have the description of Shabbey Gentiel given by Mrs Long. Descriptions are notoriously poor. Make of them what you will. Are they all describing the same man?

Yours Jeff

[Batman]

Hutchinsons man is age 34-35.

Kozminski was 23.

[Jeff Leahy]

I read your answer again and I have another question. Is Kozminski Hutchinson's suspect?

I don't think it can be ruled out. If Aaron was questioned on the 14thOct he went to ground for some time explaining the delay in the murders. He may have deliberately changed his appearance following Schwartz and Lawendes descriptions.

In Robs book he lists a burglary at Woolfes house where a Watch and chain are hidden under his bed…at the police station the watch is described as Silver…quite a rich prize for poor Eastend Tailors, as would Isacs income of £40 a week described on the following page..

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff
If Kozminsky comes to the police attention through the house to house search that involved a blood stained clue on Oct 14-then why no mention of his name for so long after? And why would the apparent ID also take so long?

Presumably a file was created on Kozminski which has since disappeared.

This was the file MacNaughten referenced in 1894. And Griffiths comments on in 1895.

However the simple solution to why the Murders stop in March 1889. (Also when Woolfe moves to Yalford Street as he has to tighten his belt) Is that the family put Aaron away not the police.

That would explain why the ID takes place and a convalescent Home belonging to a private asylum. Possibly Holloway or Bethlam.

Yours Jeff

[Batman]

I read your answer again and I have another question. Is Kozminski Hutchinson's suspect?

[Batman]

What Henry Cox reported was that he started following the man after the murder of MJK.

Unless you can show continuity that makes your Eddowes suspect a different person.

Cox doesn't suggest the man was followed before.

[Abby Normal]

Anderson wrote the LSOMOL around 1909 so he is remembering what happened. He claims he was abroad while the House to House search revealed 'a blood stained secret'.. I'm suggesting this is a direct reference to Rob House Batty Street lodger theory that Mrs Kuars neighbour told police about a bloody shirt left by a lodger, Rob breaks down the various accounts to reveal that the true story was that of a German speaking Tailor…Yiddish being a type of german.

This is the start of the sequence of events that lead to Aaron Kozminski entering a Private Asylum in Surrey in March 1889..

I believe the ID can be narrowed to a brief window of just a few months and can be traced to a Private Asylum covelesent Home, not the Police Seaside home in Hove, which has never made any sense, particularly to Martin Fido who recently emailed me such..

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff
If Kozminsky comes to the police attention through the house to house search that involved a blood stained clue on Oct 14-then why no mention of his name for so long after? And why would the apparent ID also take so long?

[Jeff Leahy]

Isn't this saying the house to house search was when he was abroad? Aren't you assuming their 'conclusion' was also at that time? Doesn't Anderson need to be around to make a conclusion, or did he make the conclusion while abroad?

Sincerely,

Mike

Anderson wrote the LSOMOL around 1909 so he is remembering what happened. He claims he was abroad while the House to House search revealed 'a blood stained secret'.. I'm suggesting this is a direct reference to Rob House Batty Street lodger theory that Mrs Kuars neighbour told police about a bloody shirt left by a lodger, Rob breaks down the various accounts to reveal that the true story was that of a German speaking Tailor…Yiddish being a type of german.

This is the start of the sequence of events that lead to Aaron Kozminski entering a Private Asylum in Surrey in March 1889..

I believe the ID can be narrowed to a brief window of just a few months and can be traced to a Private Asylum covelesent Home, not the Police Seaside home in Hove, which has never made any sense, particularly to Martin Fido who recently emailed me such..

Yours Jeff

[mklhawley]

Isn't this saying the house to house search was when he was abroad? Are you merely assuming their 'conclusion' was also at that time? Doesn't Anderson need to be around to make a conclusion, or did he make the conclusion while abroad?

Sincerely,

Mike

[Jeff Leahy]

Then it can't be the man Henry Cox started observing after MJK.

I'm not convinced as to the logic of that.

Clearly during October the police are following a large number of leads. From insane medical students to Wild indians, the police are busy.

So if Aaron was released and went into hiding, as is suggested then he is just one of many suspects. Cox says they didn't really get onto anything until after the Kelly murder, and it has to be wondered if its the description given by Hutchinson that Cox is referring too?

So i'd say this date (14th Oct) matches fairly well the accounts given by both Cox and Sagar

Yours Jeff