Aaron or not

[Natalie Severn]

Nats, to what extent would paranoid schizophrenia be genetic? I'm thinking here of the excellent work being undertaken by certain members of these boards to trace past and present members of Aaron's family tree. Should we expect to see some manifestations of paranoid schizophrenia in that tree if Aaron indeed suffered with it?

Robert

In short,yes Robert----its my understanding that if someone suffers from any type of schizophrenia the likelihood is that some other members of the family could have or have had, the same gentic make up and the same susceptibility,given certain similar environmental triggers.
Best

[Robert]

Thanks Nats.

[rjpalmer]

For if Anderson really knew who the Ripper was, then Macnaghten,Abberline and the Commissioner of the City Police, Henry Smith,would also have known,presumably?

Natalie, may I ask for your patience for one moment?

I mean this in the nicest possibly way, but it seems to me you're content with asking the easy questions. Why go over this same ground, when you already know how you're going to answer?

Smith obviously thought Anderson was full of it. So did Reid, Littlechild, etc. etc. Unless you're preaching to the uninitiated, we all know this.

So ask youself the next series of questions. For instance, if Anderson knew that Reid, Littlechild, Smith, Abberline, Macnaghten, etc. etc. were all alive and still drawing breath in 1910, why didn't he give a damn that they would contradict him? Why publish such an audacious story knowing full well that these other men were in a position to challenge it? Senility, or something else?

At the very least, he is confident that he can pull off the impression that an Assistant Commissioner of the Met is in a position to know something that his underlyings don't.

Do you not find that, even on a human level, the least bit curious?

[Natalie Severn]

No Roger I dont find it curious . Anderson"s memoirs,or memories, contain numbers of "inaccuracies".He wrote that "having decided to spend the last week of his "holiday"-in Paris,he arrived in the French capital on the night of the double murder,and that when the next day"s post brought an urgent summons for him to return to London,he did so.But a letter he wrote to one of the dailies in April 1910 states he was on his way home from Paris on the night of the double event.He was not.He did not leave Paris until 4th October-so actually both memories cited are inaccurate. According to Michael Davitt"s notebook Anderson was actually conferring with Pigott the forger of the Parnell letters and his co -writer of "Black Propaganda" for The Times, about last minute attempts to avert Pigott"s "exposure" at the Special Commission.At any rate they both departed from Paris on the same day October 4th,having both been there a week.
Some of the above are simple examples of "inaccuracy" on Anderson"s part. More serious ones exist such as his assertion that his policy of warning prostitutes that the police would not protect them ended the street murders in the Jack the Ripper series after the Double Event.That the house to house inquiry led the police to believe the Ripper was a low class Jew.That subsequently Kosminski was identified by the "only person to have ever had a good view of the murderer;That although the witness refused to testify against Kosminski the identification was conclusive and solved the case; that the identity of the original Jack the Ripper letter was identified conclusively as that of a London Journalist who Anderson was able to name.
Every one of these assertions is incorrect, and can be proven to be incorrect from contemporary and later evidence .
Best
Norma

[Chris]

Nats, to what extent would paranoid schizophrenia be genetic? I'm thinking here of the excellent work being undertaken by certain members of these boards to trace past and present members of Aaron's family tree. Should we expect to see some manifestations of paranoid schizophrenia in that tree if Aaron indeed suffered with it?

One of the questions asked when Aaron was committed was "Whether any near relative has been afflicted with insanity". The answer given in the "Statement of particulars" was "Not any known" [MA StBG/ME/107/8, no 1558]. In the Colney Hatch records this metamorphosed into "Not known" [H12/CH/B13/39].

We haven't seen any evidence of mental problems in the family, before or after Aaron's time, apart from those associated with old age.

[Robert]

Hi Chris

Then I suppose that would tend to suggest that Aaron was not a paranoid schizophrenic?

Robert

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Chris

Then I suppose that would tend to suggest that Aaron was not a paranoid schizophrenic?

Robert

Hi Robert and Chris,
The following is taken directly from the Oxford Concise Medical Dictionary.2000

Schizophrenia
a severe mental disorder or group of disorders characterized by a disintegration of the processes of thinking,of contact with reality,and of emotional responsiveness.Delusions and hallucinations,[especially of voices] are usual features,and the patient usually feels that his thoughts,sensations and actions are controlled by,or shared with,others.He becomes socially withdrawn and loses energy and initiative.The main types of schizophrenia are SIMPLE,in which increasing social withdrawal and personal ineffectiveness are the major changes;hebephrenic,which starts in adolescence or young adulthood [see hebephrenia];paranoid,characterized by prominent delusions;catatonic,with marked motor disturbances.The latter form is now rare.
Schizophrenia commonly but not inevitably runs a progressive course.The prognosis has improved with anti -psychotic drugs and with vigorous psychological and social management and rehabilation.THERE ARE STRONG GENETIC FACTORS in the causation.and environmental stress can precipitate illness.

regarding Hebephrenia it has this to say:-the most prominent features are disordered thinking;inappropriate emotions with thoughtless,cheerfulness,apathy or querulousness;and silly behaviour.It typically starts in adolescence or young adulthood.Social and occupational rehabilation are the most important therapies etc etc

The other major illness which sometimes requires sectioned admittance to a hospital is

MANIC DEPRESSIVE PSYCHOSIS [bipolar disorder]"a severe mental illness causing repeated episodes of DEPRESSION, MANIA or both.These episodes can be precipitated by upsetting events but are out of proportion to these causes.THERE IS GENERALLY A GENETICLY INHERITED PREDISPOSITION ......."

But having worked with both schizophrenic and manic depressive patients it manifests itself quite differently from schizophrenia -for example it is not characterised by visual or auditory hallucination,but rather by mood swings.

Hope this is helpful,
Best
Norma

[Mitch Rowe]

"But having worked with both schizophrenic and manic depressive patients it manifests itself quite differently from schizophrenia -for example it is not characterised by visual or auditory hallucination,but rather by mood swings."

What they are describing are severe cases of mania wich can cause psychosis. Most BP sufferers will never get to that point. Now if Kosminski actually suffered from BP disorder and he happened to be so manic that he was psychotic and then was misdiagnosed as being schitzophrenic then that would be interesting!

In a manic state senses can be heightened beyond that of a normal human being. The thinking process can be sped up many fold. Insomnia can develop and often does. The person has grandiose thoughts and may take risks no normal person would ever think of taking.

In short... Everything a person would need to be able to do what the Ripper did and get away with it. As long as the mania wasnt too severe. Then the Ripper may not care if he is discovered or lose control.

Wich is why Im not too keen on JTR having any sort of severe mental illness.
But then again look what Jim Jones could achieve. And that guy was the text book example of psychotic!

[Robert]

Didn't his mother arrive on the scene c.1890/1? It strikes me that this might be enough to tip him over the edge (and I'm not joking here).

[Observer]

Back reading the various posts here in this thread, I would tend to say that the Kosminski referred to by Macnagten, and Swanson, and the Low class Jew referred to by Anderson is Aaron Kosminski.

If this is the case, can I ask if anyone really believes he is Jack the Ripper? Personnaly I do not believe he is Jack the Ripper.

all the best

Observer

[Chris]

Didn't his mother arrive on the scene c.1890/1? It strikes me that this might be enough to tip him over the edge (and I'm not joking here).

We don't know exactly when Aaron's mother came to England, but she hasn't been found in the 1891 census - and she certainly wasn't in the household of Morris and Matilda, with whom she lived at least between 1894 and 1901 - so we assume it was later than that (and therefore after Aaron went to Colney Hatch).

[Robert]

Ok, Chris, then it must have been the thought of his mother coming.

[Natalie Severn]

Didn't his mother arrive on the scene c.1890/1? It strikes me that this might be enough to tip him over the edge (and I'm not joking here).

Thats actually really perceptive Robert!
I never forget seeing that film ,"Portnoys Complaint" which gently pokes fun at some of the anxieties of traditional Jewish mothers and fathers,it picks up on their almost hysterical response to Portnoy"s "problem" which was actually similar to poor Aaron"s-----ie if the recorded reason the family gave for his "insanity" is accurate.
I have just cut out a piece from this weeks "Independent" magazine page 47 ,where it has a piece about a new TV series entitled ,"Jews" .This week"s episode is about the "black sheep" of an ultra-orthodox Hasidic family in North London,a man named Samual,just released from prison for drug trafficking.It states that Samual rebelled in his teens against the endless strictures of this society,which adopts rules about how to dress,what to read and who to marry from village life in 19th century Eastern Europe.In return for obedience though,the community offers comprehensive material and spiritual support,even reaching out to a prodigal like Samual.
When I read that,even though I only know Aaron"s family were "practising" their religion---not that they were Hasidic Jews or anything,I wondered if family strictures had got a bit much.His case notes say he was very obstinate and I must admit I got that impression a bit,when I read he refused to work and that he walked the dog in Cheapside in 1889 ,without a muzzle,when he surely must have known he was supposed to put a muzzle on the dog before taking it out walking.Imagine mother arriving only to discover Aaron had refused to work and had maybe become a bit scruffy and kept sloping off to behave like Portnoy! Quite right ,Robert, she may well have done a performance like Portnoy"s outraged mother and set off
a crisis for Aaron,which increased his obstinacy -amongst other recorded anti-social activity, and whereby he ended up telling them all he was being instructed by a Universal instinct more powerful than any of them!

[Robert]

Hi Nats

Well, of course even though his mum wasn't there, she may have been in postal communication with him - quite frequent communication! I'm sure he must have been a bit of a disappointment to her. And I'm sure she'd have found a way of letting him know it.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nats

Well, of course even though his mum wasn't there, she may have been in postal communication with him - quite frequent communication! I'm sure he must have been a bit of a disappointment to her. And I'm sure she'd have found a way of letting him know it.

Robert----you bet