Aaron or not

[Jeff Leahy]

How do you know you haven't read the piece have you? For a start the asylum involved is totally wrong.

Yes it is isnt it...

[Stewart P Evans]

Asking

Are you really asking us to suspend beleif that Anderson could have made such a monumental error?

Who is us, you and Paul Begg?

No I am not asking you anything - in fact I don't think that you internalise much that hasn't already been systematically planted in your mind.

[ChrisGeorge]

No, Swanson did not make more than one set of notes regarding Kosminski's alleged identification at the Seaside Home. The few other marginal notes he made were about other matters in the book.

As I keep saying, when we don't know the answers we are left with speculation and we simply do not know how and when the name Kosminski first came to the attention of the police. The medical certificate made out by Dr. Houchin on 6 February 1891, on Aaron Kosminski being detained as insane, gives the information that Jacob Cohen of 51 Carter Lane, St. Paul's had informed Houchin of Kosminski's activities, including the fact that 'he took up a knife & threatened the life of his sister.'

So it may not be too much a stretch of the imagination to think that it might have been Cohen who brought Kosminski to the attention of the police making the suggestion that, as he had taken up a knife, maybe he was responsible for even more... During the time of the panic the mere suggestion or sight of a knife was enough to bring on shouts of "Jack the Rippper!"

The Coles murder, just a week later, and the initial Ripper fears, may well have been enough to make Cohen think of Kosminski being the Ripper resulting in him communicating his thoughts to the police. It would neatly and plausibly explain a lot.

Hi Stewart

You say, "So it may not be too much a stretch of the imagination to think that it might have been Cohen who brought Kosminski to the attention of the police making the suggestion that, as he had taken up a knife, maybe he was responsible for even more... "

Although of course that would be one Jew informing on another Jew which of course is just what Anderson seems insistent did not happen, right? I hold no brief for Anderson being right or wrong but I just thought I would make this point.

All the best

Chris

[Jeff Leahy]

Your seeing conspiracy where it does not exist by 'US' quite obviously I refer to the people reading this thread..who are after all those interested in the JtR mystery.

These are quite serious claims you are making against Swanson, Do you beleive that the marginalia is Fake?

I know I asked you at conference but i am seeking clarification?

[Stewart P Evans]

Houchin

Hi Stewart
You say, "So it may not be too much a stretch of the imagination to think that it might have been Cohen who brought Kosminski to the attention of the police making the suggestion that, as he had taken up a knife, maybe he was responsible for even more... "
Although of course that would be one Jew informing on another Jew which of course is just what Anderson seems insistent did not happen, right? I hold no brief for Anderson being right or wrong but I just thought I would make this point.
All the best
Chris

Isn't Cohen telling Houchin of the knife threat the same thing? Put it another way then, if it makes you happier, perhaps Cohen suggested his thought that Kosminski might be the Ripper to Houchin, and it was Houchin (who acted as a police surgeon) who informed the police.

[Stewart P Evans]

Nonsense

Your seeing conspiracy where it does not exist by 'US' quite obviously I refer to the people reading this thread..who are after all those interested in the JtR mystery.
These are quite serious claims you are making against Swanson, Do you beleive that the marginalia is Fake?
I know I asked you at conference but i am seeking clarification?

I'm getting a bit sick and tired of you and your sustained nonsense. It must be obvious to everyone when you are quoting something someone else has fed to you.

I have explained fully, and again you obviously haven't read and internalised, my concerns over the Swanson annotations that I have personally examined. I doubt that you have ever seen them. Now what is to be made of that is down to the individual and I am not telling anyone what interpretation to put on it.

[Dan Norder]

Are you really asking us to suspend beleif that Anderson could have made such a monumental error?

Are you really insisting that Anderson's claim must be assumed to be both 100% reliable and accurate despite his other clearly documented errors and all of the other police officials who contradicted his claims?

The ONLY way Begg's theory works is for Anderson to have perfect memory and to be incapable of engaging in wishful thinking and for other police officials who worked more closely on the case to all be liars or confused. Begg plays a game (which Pirate Jack Jeff here tries to copy by talking about defending a good copper) in which he pretends to be defending the good name of an official who actually didn't have a good name (as involved as he was in the Parnell forgeries) while at the same time attacking the good name of other officials and other researchers.

Begg either has an unrealistic and very unhealthy case of hero worship when it comes to Anderson... or, more likely, he knows that the evidence to support his suspect is weak so he has to come up with feeble debating tactics to try to confuse people about the facts.

[Stewart P Evans]

Thank You

Are you really insisting that Anderson's claim must be assumed to be both 100% reliable and accurate despite his other clearly documented errors and all of the other police officials who contradicted his claims?

The ONLY way Begg's theory works is for Anderson to have perfect memory and to be incapable of engaging in wishful thinking and for other police officials who worked more closely on the case to all be liars or confused. Begg plays a game (which Pirate Jack Jeff here tries to copy by talking about defending a good copper) in which he pretends to be defending the good name of an official who actually didn't have a good name (as involved as he was in the Parnell forgeries) while at the same time attacking the good name of other officials and other researchers.

Begg either has an unrealistic and very unhealthy case of hero worship when it comes to Anderson... or, more likely, he knows that the evidence to support his suspect is weak so he has to come up with feeble debating tactics to try to confuse people about the facts.

Thank you for that Dan. I have to go out now, but I shall return later. I suggest that 'Pirate Jack' (what an appropriate name) is very, very careful about what he posts - for my gloves are now off and it might be time for some uncomfortable points to be aired.

[Observer]

Hi Chris

Hi Stewart

You say, "So it may not be too much a stretch of the imagination to think that it might have been Cohen who brought Kosminski to the attention of the police making the suggestion that, as he had taken up a knife, maybe he was responsible for even more... "

Although of course that would be one Jew informing on another Jew which of course is just what Anderson seems insistent did not happen, right? I hold no brief for Anderson being right or wrong but I just thought I would make this point.

All the best

Chris

I was about to make the same observation, and then I rememebered the exchange Anderson had with the irate "Mentor" in the Jewish Chronicle. Anderson back-peddling requalified his description of Jewish solidarity and added "a certain class" of Jew, almost certainly refffeing to the criminal classes of Jews who inhabited the East-End.

all the best

Observer

[Carrotty Nell]

Given the above timeline it is very easy to see how these details could all be combined and transmuted into the Anderson story of a failed identification of Kosminski as the Ripper by a Jewish witness just after his incarceration. Sadler was not Jewish but, of course, the witness and Kosminski were, and the identification scenario is complete. No need to puzzle over a 'Seaside Home' identification (and non-existent second witness), with all its complications, that simply did not happen.

Stewart, forgive me, but I can believe Anderson in his dotage getting this mixed up in his failing memory. But we are talking TWO doddery old codgers here BOTH misremembering and confusing suspect (1) Kosminski with suspect (2) Sadler in EXACTLY the same respects: 'wasn't that Sadler fellow Jewish? Seem to recall something about a Jew... got chucked in the loony bin as I recall...'. Swanson was writing privately and never expected his musings to become public property. It can in no way be dismissed therefore as a public relations 'we DID solve this case after all' exercise.

Furthermore, how IF Anderson AND Swanson were under delusions worthy of Aaron himself... how do you account for McNaghten? McNaghten might not have had Kosminski at the top of his list but he obviously knew him as a very major suspect. And you yourself have said that you do not believe McNaghten merely got his (flawed) information from Anderson. They were in an egalitarian position at SY and would have privy to the same suspect information.

[Stewart P Evans]

Fit Up

Sadler was NOT jewish, was NOT identifeid...In fact he was almost certainly fitted up for Coles murder...(according to news paper reports)

So are you saying that Anderson's men were quite happy to 'fit up' Sadler for a murder he presumably didn't commit, but Anderson would not be happy to let an insane Jew, safely tucked away for the duration, take the blame for the Ripper murders?

[Jeff Leahy]

Are you really insisting that Anderson's claim must be assumed to be both 100% reliable and accurate despite his other clearly documented errors and all of the other police officials who contradicted his claims?

No you are claiming this. I said what I said. I've never said Anderson was 100% accurate..I don't believe I've ever suggested this about any one and I to my knowledge Begg has never stated such a thing either.

The ONLY way Begg's theory works is for Anderson to have perfect memory and to be incapable of engaging in wishful thinking and for other police officials who worked more closely on the case to all be liars or confused.

Rubbish what are you talking about? We know that Mcnaughten makes a series of mistakes, I dont know that anybody disputes this?

Begg plays a game (which Pirate Jack Jeff here tries to copy by talking about defending a good copper) in which he pretends to be defending the good name of an official who actually didn't have a good name

You havnt bothered to read what I put...I was quite clearly calling Swanson a good copper..to my knowledge he had a Good police record.

(as involved as he was in the Parnell forgeries)

Dont presume to quote Parnell at me Norder, we are quite aware of what was done to us.

Begg either has an unrealistic and very unhealthy case of hero worship when it comes to Anderson... or, more likely, he knows that the evidence to support his suspect is weak so he has to come up with feeble debating tactics to try to confuse people about the facts.

Unrealistic and unhealthy...'pot calling the kettle' I beleive..

Begg is a serious historian who at least understands the differance between Historical Fact and Fact..

Which quite clearly from your rantings you do not..

[Jeff Leahy]

So are you saying that Anderson's men were quite happy to 'fit up' Sadler for a murder he presumably didn't commit, but Anderson would not be happy to let an insane Jew, safely tucked away for the duration, take the blame for the Ripper murders?

I'm saying that it is highly unlikely that Anderson could have made such a monumental error

And adding that the source material dosnt support your claim.

[Stewart P Evans]

No Very Major Suspect

Stewart, forgive me, but I can believe Anderson in his dotage getting this mixed up in his failing memory. But we are talking TWO doddery old codgers here BOTH misremembering and confusing suspect (1) Kosminski with suspect (2) Sadler in EXACTLY the same respects: 'wasn't that Sadler fellow Jewish? Seem to recall something about a Jew... got chucked in the loony bin as I recall...'. Swanson was writing privately and never expected his musings to become public property. It can in no way be dismissed therefore as a public relations 'we DID solve this case after all' exercise.
Furthermore, how IF Anderson AND Swanson were under delusions worthy of Aaron himself... how do you account for McNaghten? McNaghten might not have had Kosminski at the top of his list but he obviously knew him as a very major suspect. And you yourself have said that you do not believe McNaghten merely got his (flawed) information from Anderson. They were in an egalitarian position at SY and would have privy to the same suspect information.

No, I am saying that they were perfectly capable of inventing part of the story to put the blame on Kosminski. However, we do know for certain that Anderson's memory was getting muddled when he was aged about 70.

Kosminski's name obviously was given to the police as a suspect, but certainly not 'a very major' one. As Macnaghten explained there was "no shadow of proof" to be 'thrown on any one.' There was no 'very major suspect' - ever - for the Whitechapel murders. That would have required some sort of hard evidence and there was none.

[Stewart P Evans]

Sorry

I'm saying that it is highly unlikely that Anderson could have made such a monumental error

And adding that the source material dosnt support your claim.

I'm sorry, but you really do not know what you are talking about - and you are still not reading and understanding what has gone before. I no longer wish to argue with the monkey (figuratively speaking).