Arbitrary Selective Rejection and Acceptence of Coincidences

[tji]

But surely, he doesn't mention his god at all, does he? He says he hears voices, not that he hears his god's voice. He says he knows the thoughts of all mankind, not that he knows his god's thoughts. If he was that much in thrall to his god, wouldn't he have mentioned him?

I'm also struggling to see how refusing food at the hands of others and instead picking it up out of the gutter could be seen as satisfying any religious dietary requirement.

Hi guys

From what I understand I think it would be obvious if he suffered form this illness. As far as I can tell it isn't about God telling him to kill people but more about an OCD type illness.

He would pray constantly and constantly attend confessional which are 2 acts that would stand out. Also as you pointed out Chris he would likely have performed cleansing and purification rituals which sort of contradicts eating spoiled food.

I am not sure if this will be much help on it - http://iocdf.org/wp-content/uploads/...Fact-Sheet.pdf

[Errata]

Hi guys

From what I understand I think it would be obvious if he suffered form this illness. As far as I can tell it isn't about God telling him to kill people but more about an OCD type illness.

He would pray constantly and constantly attend confessional which are 2 acts that would stand out. Also as you pointed out Chris he would likely have performed cleansing and purification rituals which sort of contradicts eating spoiled food.

I am not sure if this will be much help on it - http://iocdf.org/wp-content/uploads/...Fact-Sheet.pdf

Scrupulosity can result from a genuine fear or event or a delusion.
Kosminski's came from a delusion. The behavior is not entirely the same as the typical OCD manifestation, but they are very close. The difference with delusional scrupulosity is that frankly it makes less sense. With delusions, the rules are often made up as the delusion goes along. But the principal rules are the same. A sin is committed, and forgiveness must be attained. With OCD, the penitent behaviors are rational, if not the frequency or quality. No one with OCD atones for a sin by eating waffles until they vomit. They will engage in behaviors in line with the religion they adhere to. With a delusion, both the sin and the penance can be pretty bizarre, or even unknown. Scrupulosity is not the underlying disease. It's a manifestation of OCD, delusional disorders, and major depression. Though there is a strong component of delusion in OCD.

Scrupulosity can be a direct encounter kind of delusion. And there are some spectacular examples of that. But it usually isn't. Any behavior that involves guilt over religion or morals is scrupulosity. Regardless the cause. And invariably it involves the performance of rituals. Not necessarily blood sacrifice or something like that. One of the more common rituals involves color. Certain colors are forbidden, so a sufferer will not wear those colors, or will avoid people wearing those colors. There is a strong element of superstition involved. In many ways it's a very familiar coping mechanism. Something inexplicably goes wrong, people naturally turn to superstition, beliefs, religion and ritual to deal with it. Only in this case, something didn't necessarily go wrong, the beliefs involved are flawed, and the rituals are made up as they go.

Kosminski altered his behavior because he believed that he was dying from some illness inflicted on him as a punishment. His dietary issues were an effort to cure that illness. But Jews don't do this the same way Christians do. And our reality does dictate our delusions. There is a wonderful paper out there called "A Disease of the Soul" studying how the divine is reflected in Schizophrenia. It catalogs the differences in delusion across religious divides. Kosminski's apparent lack of divine contact is not unusual for Jews. It is enough that he believed he was being punished, and was tying to atone. His method of atoning, of curing this disease he was punished with, was his unusual eating habits. No rational person believes they have been struck down with a disease they don't have as a punishment for an unknown act and that he can cure this disease by eating garbage. The form is familiar, but the specifics are bizarre. This is sort of the calling card of delusional scrupulosity.

[Batman]

I always thought scrupulosity was a Jesuit identified disorder (ignatius of loyola).

So you think Jews suffer from it also?

As far as I remember reading Loyola felt he couldn't do enough to atone for his life as a soldier killing people. So his religious friends told him he had scrupples. He came up with some routine (exercises) to help eleviate the feeling but also used said exercises to train new students.

How could eating bread from the gutter be considered Kosher though?

Also how could public masturbation be considered Kosher too?

[Chris]

Any behavior that involves guilt over religion or morals is scrupulosity. ...
Kosminski altered his behavior because he believed that he was dying from some illness inflicted on him as a punishment.

Hmm. What's the evidence that his behaviour involved guilt? Or that he believed his illness had been inflicted as a punishment?

[Jeff Leahy]

I have a friend who suffers from bipolar disorder and that exactly describes his behaviour and the effect alcohol has on him. He is more likely to self harm than attack anybody,

My partners ex-husband was diagnosed with bi-polar and drank a bottle of vodka a day. She thought much as you do , right up to the point that he ran her over…

That said my best friend also has bi-polar and is a brilliant and talented Artist and Musician, We've had many a happy hour sinking a bottle of wine and playing bad renditions of the sex pistols, with no hint of violence, accept the odd broken string…

Mental health alone is not dangerous, it can on rare occasions become so, and each individual will be different.

Thats why Dr Lars Davidson caveat'd his prognosis by stating without an accurate one to one, he could not be specific. He say's he based his opinion 'Hebophrenic' largely on Aaron's Age and known decent into Catatonic state.

Aaron's illness is also far more complex than simply eating food from the gutter. MacNaughten states Kosminski has a strong hatred of women.

The A to Z contains the following:

On admission patient is extremely deluded and morose. As mentioned in the certificate he believes that all his actions are dominated by an 'instinct' This is probably mental hallucination. Answers questions fairly but is inclined to be reticent and morose. Health Fair.

Is rather difficult to deal with on account of the dominant character of his delusions. Refused to be bathed the other day as his 'instinct' forbade him.

Incoherent at times excited and Violent, a few days ago he took up a chair and attempted to strike the charge attendant: apathetic as a rule and refuses to occupy himself in any way. Habits clean, health fair.

Quite well behaved only speaks German, Does no work.

Chronic Mania Intelligence impaired at times noisy, excited & incoherent. unoccupied. Habits clean. Health Fair.

By the time his records pick up at Leavesdon, he may aswell be dead, it truly is a terrible illness..

Patient is dull vacant. Faulty & unhealthy habbits. Does nothing useful. Nothing can be got in questions. BH weak. HCS

Pat merely mutters when asked questions. He has Hallucinations of sight and hearing and is very excitable at times. Does not work. Clean but untidy in dress. BH fair. DNG.
(i've no idea why he's referred to as 'Pat')

It goes on to list his slow death…all very sad.

But what we need to know is his condition in Autumn 1888. The man described by Cox and Sagar if it was Aaron Kosminski is far from the man described here.

Yours Jeff

[Observer]

Hi Jeff

The reference to "Pat", is connected in no way to the authorities believing Kosminski to be an Irishman. It's an abbreviation of Patient I believe.

Regards

Observer

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff

The reference to "Pat", is connected in no way to the authorities believing Kosminski to be an Irishman. It's an abbreviation of Patient I believe.

Regards

Observer

Thanks Observer, I was beginning to wonder if they'd found him a job as a Postman

[Observer]

Hahahaha. Indeed.

Regards

Observer

[Errata]

Hmm. What's the evidence that his behaviour involved guilt? Or that he believed his illness had been inflicted as a punishment?

It's not evidence. It's sort of completeing a thought.

He had an "instinct" which controlled him, told him what to do. It tells him the movements of all mankind, and it orders him to refuse food from others, and to eat out of the gutter. He also believes he is ill, and the orders about food he is given by this "instinct" are the cure.

Either he was remarkably self perceptive and the illness he is referring to is his own delusion (which is an awareness that is impossible while delusional), or he simply believes he is ill.

If his "instinct" is dictating his cure, which is not pleasant by any stretch of the imagination, and he obeys this "instinct" without fail, then it stand to reason that this illness he believes in was given to him by the "instinct", and his punishment is the cure. A delusion could have just as easily told him to eat candy to cure a disease. That it is punishment is significant.

It makes sense that this is scrupulosity. Eating garbage is penance. And there is a societal history of that. If he is performing penance then it is because he sinned and is being punished. We don't have a complete record of his delusions, but this is what scrupulosity looks like in Jews.

[Errata]

I always thought scrupulosity was a Jesuit identified disorder (ignatius of loyola).

So you think Jews suffer from it also?

As far as I remember reading Loyola felt he couldn't do enough to atone for his life as a soldier killing people. So his religious friends told him he had scrupples. He came up with some routine (exercises) to help eleviate the feeling but also used said exercises to train new students.

How could eating bread from the gutter be considered Kosher though?

Also how could public masturbation be considered Kosher too?

We do get scrupulosity. And in fact as a people we have a disproportionate amount of mental illness, Schizophrenia and OCD being the most prevalent. No idea why, probably the genetic component.

But it's not the same for Jews. The only ritual penance we ever have is fasting. We don't have any expectation of talking to God or seeing him. It's not part of our religion, it's not part of our culture. We don't have a system of penance. And we don't have a close relationship with any deity. God is like a volcano. Majestic, deadly, best appreciated from afar. And secular Jews have even less to go on. But one thing Jews do have in spades is guilt, and a sense of being persecuted. Actually being persecuted doesn't help.

When Jews get scrupulosity, God typically doesn't make an appearance. There is the idea of sin, of guilt, sometimes of punishing the wicked. But it is extremely rare for a Jew to talk to God or to see him. Christians do see and talk to God. So it works differently. There is a sense of being punished more than a sense of wrongdoing. In Christians, there tends to be the knowledge that you have sinned, or that you might. In Jews, that part is more vague, but the punishment for the sin tends to be pretty clear. It's part of the cultural truth of being persecuted. And disease is actually pretty popular. Christians have penance they can do. Jews don't. Fasting usually becomes a part of it, but anything else is made up along the way.

Scrupulosity in Christians tends to be pretty obvious. Everyone know what atonement looks like in Christianity, and the protective behaviors reflect those things. Praying, self abnegation, living like a monk, in rare cases killing.

Kosminski has an "instinct" that rules him. That is God, essentially. He doesn't see it as God because God doesn't talk to us. But this "instinct" performs that function. He sees himself as having been given an illness that requires a harmful and humiliating cure. That's ritual penance. And it goes along with idea of fasting, which is part of Judaism. His unwillingness to wash is also a Jewish ritual taken to an extreme. When people are sick, they are unclean. When they become clean again, they take a ritual bath called a mikvah. Kosminski saw himself as unclean, and would not wash because he was not yet ritually clean. The bones of Jewish ritual are in his delusion. He doesn't see it that way, he sees his "cure" as unique, but it's based on what he knew. Our reality dictates our delusions.

His reality was that of being a secular Jew in a terrible situation.

The food thing is not about being Kosher, it's about doing what he is told.

And while there is nothing supporting the notion that Kosminski was a compulsive public masturbator, Judaism doesn't have any inherent problem with that. I'm not even sure that flashing is technically against God's law. I mean, as long as none of your relatives are in the crowd.

[Chris]

It's not evidence. It's sort of completeing a thought.

If it's just a piece of interesting speculation, that's fine. But it sounded at first as though you were saying Robert's observation was definitely wrong.

[Errata]

If it's just a piece of interesting speculation, that's fine. But it sounded at first as though you were saying Robert's observation was definitely wrong.

Well hell it all may be wrong. I think the observation is wrong because I have both read about and seen the difference a specific faith makes in this particular mindset. But Jewish Schizophrenics have at least on two occasions that I know of seen Jesus. I've read those reports. They were pretty specific. No rationale to it anywhere, but there it was. The shining exception to a rule. And to be fair, both patients were confused by the manifestation. So while there are guidelines, there are no rules.

Given everything in Kosminski's jacket, if I'm completely honest, I don't think he was Schizophrenic. It's such a good fit I hate to toss aside the notion, but there is a better explanation, one that is rare, and unknown at the time. Regardless of what his diagnosis was, he did display classic symptoms of delusional scrupulosity. Whatever else may or may not have been going on, it think it's a good descriptor.

[Jeff Leahy]

It's not evidence. It's sort of completeing a thought.

He had an "instinct" which controlled him, told him what to do. It tells him the movements of all mankind, and it orders him to refuse food from others, and to eat out of the gutter. He also believes he is ill, and the orders about food he is given by this "instinct" are the cure.

Either he was remarkably self perceptive and the illness he is referring to is his own delusion (which is an awareness that is impossible while delusional), or he simply believes he is ill.

If his "instinct" is dictating his cure, which is not pleasant by any stretch of the imagination, and he obeys this "instinct" without fail, then it stand to reason that this illness he believes in was given to him by the "instinct", and his punishment is the cure. A delusion could have just as easily told him to eat candy to cure a disease. That it is punishment is significant.

It makes sense that this is scrupulosity. Eating garbage is penance. And there is a societal history of that. If he is performing penance then it is because he sinned and is being punished. We don't have a complete record of his delusions, but this is what scrupulosity looks like in Jews.

ANd this is your new theory, rather than your previous theory that Aaron was Bi Polar…

Yet you still fail to address MacNaughtens observation that 'he had a hatred of women'

Please excuse the rest of us trusting trained experts

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

But Jewish Schizophrenics have at least on two occasions that I know of seen Jesus. I've read those reports. They were pretty specific. No rationale to it anywhere, but there it was. The shining exception to a rule. And to be fair, both patients were confused by the manifestation. So while there are guidelines, there are no rules.
.

Eh but the key to this is surely the word 'Schizophrenic'?

The expert I consulted discussed in general terms a number of patients on his ward. Two of these both believed they were Lord Louise Mount Battern (And apparently got along famously) This is a common gandious element of Schizophrenia (Although I understand it is also true of some people suffering bi-polar) And as we don't know why MacNaughten says Kosminski has a great hatred of woman, as all schizophrenic conditions are unique to the person suffering we should be careful about trying to fix to precise a diagnosis.

Given Aarons age and decent into catatonic state the most rassional probability is 'a form of schizophrenia' This is fairly common in men of Aarons age. And while I agree some elements sound like 'Paranoia' by and large Paraniod schizophrenics tend to develop rather older (Typically late twenties) Personally I'm always suspicious of the term, as in the UK media Paraniod Schizophrenic seems to have become synonymous with meaning dangerous and I wonder if the term is 'Media' driven rather than genuine diagnosis. A schizophrenic spectrum seems more probable to me.

What we know (Link from earlier post) is that should schizophrenics become dangerous they are more likely (Statistically) to do so when their illness first develops. That once removed from the environment and Catylist associated with their condition they are likely to make improvement, as schizophrenics are basically not dangerous and more likely to endanger themselves than others. So its the on set that is important. It also explains why Aaron is 'basically' harmless as described in his asylum records. Schizophrenics can be very functional during this early phase.

Aaron seems to have still been functional for periods in 1889-90.

None of this says Aarom was Jack the Ripper, simply that the possibility can not simply be discounted because he apparently appears harmless at the end of his life.

Yours Jeff

[Errata]

ANd this is your new theory, rather than your previous theory that Aaron was Bi Polar…

Yet you still fail to address MacNaughtens observation that 'he had a hatred of women'

Please excuse the rest of us trusting trained experts

Yours Jeff

Scrupulosity goes with delusions. Regardless of how those delusions come about, whether it be schizophrenia, bipolar, a psychotic break, OCD, hell even malaria.

I do still think that Kosminski had one of the rarer forms of Bipolar disorder. Which changes nothing as far as his worth as a suspect, though to be honest Bipolar people do slightly lead Schizophrenics in violent outbursts. Not by a lot, but a little bit. Nor does Bipolar in any way preclude delusions. Especially on the manic side, and Kosminski's jacket describes mania.

But we don't have a lot on him, so I can't exactly make some kind of definitive statement with only a dozen or so behaviors described. Hell he could have a brain injury for all I know.

As for Mcnaughton's statement... there are problems. He says he went mad from masturbating. Which we all know doesn't happen. And he says he had a great hatred of women. Of which there was no record. There is nothing, not even Mcnaughton's own statements that suggest he ever had any contact with Kosminski. Which makes sense. What he is likely basing his statement off of is the medical certificate. He pulled a knife on his sister. It's in his initial interviews. Now, the best thinking at the time was that Jack the Ripper hated women, so it's natural to look at a suspect with an act of violence towards a woman and see the Ripper. Jack hated women, Kosminski pulled a knife on a woman, ergo Kosminski hated women. In this case I think the statement about Kosminski's supposed hatred of women is overblown. Literary license, not necessarily a quote from Kosminski.

The only evidence we have on Kosminski's view of women is that single incident. And for all we know that was self defense. We can make assumptions given his delusions, his problems with socializing, the culture he grew up in, etc. But they are just assumptions. As it stands, nothing backs up McNaughton's rather strong statement.

I have no problem with you trusting trained experts. I'm a trained expert of a sort, and I have trained experts I ask. And they aren't going to agree with so little actual information. I try to stay out of the diagnosis game because in the end the diagnosis doesn't matter. It's the behavior that matters. But yeah I get sucked in sometimes. I like puzzles as much as the next girl. Scrupulosity is a description of behaviors and motivation. That matters. The fact that Kosminski may or may not have had a disease with 12 separate components including genetics, heredity, and structural collapse... doesn't matter so much.

If he was schizophrenic, or bipolar, or in early onset dementia, it tells us nothing. It doesn't make him more or less likely to be a killer. If his behaviors showed that he had delusions of being the Queen, that makes him less likely to butcher prostitutes. If his behaviors show him escalating violent behaviors in order to do God's will, that might make him more likely to be a killer. Scrupulosity simply describes one possible manifestation of a delusion. But scrupulosity isn't the only behavior pattern common in delusions. I just think it's the one that fits the best. If you think there is a better explanation of his patterns, shout it out. But the diagnosis really doesn't matter.