Arbitrary Selective Rejection and Acceptence of Coincidences

[Batman]

I view the Blotchy face character seen by Mrs. Cox with his pale of ale as an alcoholic every bit as much MJK was. I believe he is also JtR. Given the hours of the morning he was around I would think him on the way out from a pub somewhere. I mean, that seems to make the most sense doesn't it? JtR is characterized as a disorganized offender from what I remember. So he would randomly attack while out randomly looking for a victim. Isn't this what Sutcliffe sort of did? In April 1980 Sutcliffe was arrested for drunk driving. He killed while awaiting trial.

[Scott Nelson]

AH! it was some time ago… I was with Caz..most of the weekend.

Oh no!!

[Jonathan H]

To Chris

I find the theory (treated here as fact) that Macnaghten simply pulled out of his drawer the 'Aberconway' version as it was less trouble than visiting the SY archive to retrieve the official version, as naive and untenable.

The real reason Macnaghten had to use the so-called draft version is because:

1. It is vastly different from the official version in falsely claiming Druitt was definitely a middle-aged doctor (Griffiths was never going to accept "said to be a doctor"), and that he was the lead suspect (Mac's real opinion) with the other suspects sex-ed up too.

2. Macnaghten needed the version that quashed the hated Anderson and his safely caged local lumpen, which the latter had begun to propagate also via Griffiths in 1894. Sims will claim in 1903 and 1910 that 'Aberconway' was a definitive document of state, lodged at the Home Office. These are are both lies.

3. The material about Druitt (and therefore about Kosminski) is constantly being reshaped depending on the audience. From 1903 Sims will claim that the mad doctor had been sectioned, twice, in an asylum. That's not in either version. In 1907, Sims will claim that the second leading suspect was an American medico. That's not in either version. Sims will also claim in the same article that the Polish suspect worked in a hospital in Poland, lived alone and was sectioned by the state. That is not in either version. In his memoir chapter, the de-facto third version of his report, Macnaghten mentions the graffiti as the only clue left behind by the killer-- and that's not in either version too.

4. You yourself found Sims' 1910 column in which he very rudely disparaged Anderson for his clumsy, anti-Semitic bungles, I think on behalf of Macnaghten. Sims derides the notion of any Jews acting as accessories after the fact. It is also the only time the archived version is mentioned in the extant record before 1966, and accurately describes its contents, e.g. not taking sides between the three suspects.

5. "Laying the Ghost of Jack the Ripper" reshaped the material for the final time. The Drowned Doctor is dropped, along with the Polish and Russian suspects altogether. It is just the un-named Druitt, who kills himself maybe the same day as Sir Charles Warren's resignation was accepted. This was the honourable schoolboy's last joke against the man he despised for sacking him before he had even started. To have this bit of fun, Macnaghten had to deny that the year before he had claimed that he was six months too late to hunt the sexually insane barrister (in fact, he was exactly six months too late). He had said that.

I agree that an oblivious and innocent Macnaghten handing over the draft version without any sense of its public impact is certainly one of the shaky pillars upon which so-called "Ripperology" resides, because if kicked away (actually the merest breeze does this) the whole edifice, of it being a 'mystery', comes tumbling down.

[martin wilson]

Hi all

Just wanted to say that Errata's post on mental illness and alcohol is absolutely bang on, it should be taken up to dissertations as the standard reference rather than lost amid a million other posts.
I have a friend who suffers from bipolar disorder and that exactly describes his behaviour and the effect alcohol has on him. He is more likely to self harm than attack anybody, although he did once give a drain cover a good thrashing.
I could never quite get to the bottom of what provocation the drain cover had offered and considered it something of an injustice.
However he sent me a photo of it, and it did look a feisty little bugger.
All the best.

[Chris]

To Chris

I find the theory (treated here as fact) that Macnaghten simply pulled out of his drawer the 'Aberconway' version as it was less trouble than visiting the SY archive to retrieve the official version, as naive and untenable.

Treated as fact?

What I wrote was "Couldn't that have been just because ..."

But I have to say that in trying to interpret the evidence I do prefer simple and straightforward explanations rather than complicated speculative ones.

[Batman]

While there is maybe no correlation between mental illness, alcohol and crime there certainly is between alcohol and crime.

https://ncadd.org/learn-about-alcohol/alcohol-and-crime

[Jonathan H]

Chris, how very disappointing, but not unexpected.

I cannot help notice that you that you did not consider a single example I put forward.

Not one.

You just responded with a cliche.

That history is often complicated in its explanations you need only look at the world war that started one hundred years ago last year.

Why did it happen?

Was it because of the Arch-Duke's assassination? Or was it because of the Russian Mobilization? Or was it because of German/Prussian military momentum? Or was it because the Alliance System caused smaller states to drag in the Great Powers? Or was it because of the specific leaders--eg. change them and you have a different outcome? Or was it because Britain involved herself needlessly in what would have been a short Continental war quickly won by Germany so the Kaiser could set up a customs union?

The danger of the so-called simple explanation is that you are left with not a simplistic explanation, but rather no explanation at all. Not one that stands any scrutiny.

After all how do you deal with all the loose ends?

Easy. What loose ends?

This has always been the problem with the argument that Anderson is the more reliable of the police sources. To make that plausible you have to not only omit sources that don't fit, you have to torture the ones that are left.

[Chris]

Chris, how very disappointing, but not unexpected.

I cannot help notice that you that you did not consider a single example I put forward.

Not one.

You just responded with a cliche.

As far as I'm concerned, preferring simple and straightforward explanations is just common sense. As is acknowledging that while we can construct all kinds of theories about what happened, we really know very little.

[Jeff Leahy]

First of all, never accept mental health statistics from Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland or New Zealand. Which sounds like the beginning of a joke, but it isn't. These countries have dramatically skewed numbers in the Mental Illness department. There's a reason Finland (and Norway) categorize by symptom. Their mentally ill population is much larger than the US or Britain. Icelandic people and New Zealanders are very odd, but frighteningly sane. To the point that American shrinks of my acquaintance in the 50s traveled to both countries convinced that there was a diagnostic problem like there is in South America. There wasn't. Their statistics are relevant to them alone, and no one is really sure why. And despite that, Nordic countries have some of the fewest shrinks per capita in first world nations..

Well its odd that the Fin's seem as critical of the United States as you seem of them. But you do inadvertently raise a good point, Schizophrenia does seem to have considerable cultural and international differences and to my knowledge that has never been satisfactorily explained.

Schizophrenics in Japan (Tokeo) fore instance seem to exhibit higher rates of Grandious symptoms than else where in the world. And the expert I conferred with seemed to confirm that environments were potentially an important factor. http://www.nhs.uk/news/2011/08August...zophrenia.aspx

But recent NHS story seems to confirm that genetics is a very important factor. http://www.nhs.uk/news/2011/08August...zophrenia.aspx

So it seems probable. And I must stress that all the experts I've felt with have little problem of reaching a conclusion Aaron Kosminski suffered a form of schizophrenia. That there was knowledge of it within the family and general community, Although his committal notes indicate otherwise. Especially as it seems possible that there was marriage between closely related members within this community.

On the other hand, it sounds like the survey you are referring to has been misinterpreted slightly. There was a similar study here in the states done right after one of the shootings at the White House fence that found that Schizophrenics were more loaded for violence than an average person, they have more problems, brain collapse causes mood lability, their lives kind of suck, they are far more often the victims of violence, and they are losing the ability to express themselves coherently. Of all the factors we think of that contribute to violence, schizophrenics have the highest concentration per person. .

http://apt.rcpsych.org/content/12/4/239.full

Yes if you check the research I supplied you'll note that this is qualified. Schizophrenics are more venerable and often enter poorer sections of society. They are thus more likely to come into contact with drugs and alcohol. Its a vicious circle a chicken and egg, as I explained.

The report thus concludes that schizophrenics are more likely to be involved in violent crime but the qualification makes it far from clear whether schizophrenia 'per ce' is responsible. This is why I usual quote Dr Lars Davidson as Schizophrenics being no more likely than other people in society to be violent.

The reason for this is because it would be irresponsible to demonise a venerable section of society and I'm extremely careful not to do so when discussing sensitive subjects like Jack the ripper.

The average schizophrenic ticks seven boxes to a normal person's two or three. But we also track actual violence, and Schizophrenics, and any mentally ill person is vastly less likely to be violent than a normal person. Even within the subcategory of mental illness, schizophrenics are less violent than mood disorders or autism, and Bipolar only runs at about 2%. Now a schizophrenic is more likely to kill someone than any other disorder, but mania is a very close second and in both cases it is most often an accident. But schizophrenics also typically don't show up anywhere in the other violent crime categories, like rape or arson. And out of anyone they are the ones most likely to die from defenestration. I can't believe someone paid for that to be studied, but if you ever want to fork over $500,000 to find out who is most likely to throw themselves out a window, save your money. It's schizophrenics, then prostitutes, then businessmen..

I've never seen reliable statistical information from the United States but if you have it I'm more than happy to take it onboard. The Finland survey is unique because they collected crime statistics. Of course its problematic because ticking general boxes is far from satisfactory. The old categorisation terms like Paranoid hebephrenic and Catatonic are hotly disputed by a number of psychiatrists who argue Schizophrenia is actually a syndrome on which individuals sit on a spectrum.

My understanding is that there is still a lot to be learned in this field.

We also don't know he was a schizophrenic. The age of onset and symptoms described make it a reasonable option, but so is toxicity, brain tumor, mental collapse, a form of TBI, straight mania, even some kinds of epilepsy. And it could also be something really rare. Wilson's disease, tuberculosis, Addison's or Cushing's, Scurvy, Pick's disease, early onset Alzheimer's, foreign body infection, hell even shingles. And that's just off the top of my head. The brain and body are weird places. They don't always react as advertised. We are supposed to think horses not zebras. But there are far more common reasons for delusions and hallucinations than Schizophrenia. It's comparatively rare. Drunks on the other hand are not. Nor is fever or ergot..

All the experts I've consulted reach the opinion he was suffering a form of schizophrenia. So for know I'll stick with the expert opinion I was supplied with.

And frankly, schizophrenics in that time period died young. They were rarely full blown onset for more than a decade. Kosminski lived about a decade longer than an untreated schizophrenic should have in that time. He certainly should have been catatonic or bed bound (and incontinent) the last couple of years of his life. And there's no indication he was. He honestly could have had just about anything..

Dr LArs Davidson (A harley Street speciallist) said based on his age and known decent into catatonic state that Aarons symptoms we're typical of schizophrenia. Another expert I consulted pointed out that to make a precise diagnosis without one to one observation would not be possible, so qualified as 'probably a form of schizophrenia'

They didn't conclude something else.

There are many experts out there, and I never insist that someone disregard a source for no better reason than they disagree with me. But it is vitally important that if you are going to to use an expert that a: First you talk to a diagnostician conveying to them all of the known symptoms (don't just assume someone is a schizophrenic and only give them that information. That leads to confirmation bias.) b: when you want to introduce something new into the mix, like say alcohol, always stipulate that the person is unmedicated, and likely does not know their own diagnosis..

Dr Lars Davidson was given all the material on Aaron Kosminski and drew his own conclusions.

But I'll tell you this. No one I have ever presented these symptoms to has thought he was Schizophrenic. Manic or Schizoaffective. A few votes for industrial poisoning.

Then it appears we are in disagreement on this subject.

I did however spend some time a few years ago talking to someone how worked (and still does) with schizophrenics at an asylum, and is also on regular call to deal with mental health cases. They discussed a number of cases in confidence of men of similar age to Aaron. It was that person who seemed fairly confident that once removed from the environment and catalyst that had lead to violence then the patient should show remarkable recovery. (He qualified that with saying he was not familiar with Victorian medicine) He also described sufferers going through cycles of waves. And this seems pertinent to what we know about Aaron Kosminski.

It also interestingly ties with accounts given by Cox and Sagar…He from time to time became insane.

Aarons commital notes to Colney Hatch talk about a Six Mouth attack, which suggests to me periods of recovery.

Yours Jeff

[Batman]

I think its quite straightforward that eating bread from the gutter and not from other people's hands is a strong delusion of persecution and poisoning. This is generally found in patients with forms of schizophrenia.

It is not unusual that different cultures display variation in illness. The expressed phenotype is environmental influenced. Biological determinism is a dead duck and always has been. Gene + Environment = expressed phenotype. Nature + Nurture, not either one.

Couple a religious background being persecuted within the sociocultural backdrop of the worst urban setting the world had developed at that time and there are all sorts of triggers there to promote violent irrational behaviour.

At the same time I don't think Kozminski is JtR. Just a person of interest who got noticed when the murders ceased or left Whitechapel. Tumblety and Chapman are the same IMO for example. Druitt is another. These are all stage left exits after MJK died.

[Robert]

If, as seems reasonable to assume, Aaron believed his family were trying to poison him, then one can only guess as to his opinion of the motivations of complete strangers. He may have had them down as agents of his family, sent to spy on him. Who knows? We cannot get inside his head.

[Errata]

I think its quite straightforward that eating bread from the gutter and not from other people's hands is a strong delusion of persecution and poisoning. This is generally found in patients with forms of schizophrenia.

Actually what he describes is something called scrupulosity. It's a religious delusion, he felt that he was being punished with an illness, and his dietary quirks were what was going to save him. It's an important distinction because he was not blaming others for his condition. He was trying to save himself from a divine punishment. It is a delusion less likely to result in violence. Scrupulosity can be very dangerous indeed. God tells you to kill people, you kill people. But that's not what he had. The only violence that could come from his specific delusion would be if someone was trying to prevent him from curing himself, and he might violently act out to escape. It's a delusion that predicts fear, not anger.

Any and every delusion shows up in Schizophrenia. But they also show up in any other condition that can cause delusions. Schizophrenia has the benefit of being the only disease whose defining symptom is delusions. But it's not the most common cause of delusions. It's why schizophrenia is a good guess for what he had, but not the only good guess.

[Robert]

But surely, he doesn't mention his god at all, does he? He says he hears voices, not that he hears his god's voice. He says he knows the thoughts of all mankind, not that he knows his god's thoughts. If he was that much in thrall to his god, wouldn't he have mentioned him?

[Chris]

I'm also struggling to see how refusing food at the hands of others and instead picking it up out of the gutter could be seen as satisfying any religious dietary requirement.

[Scott Nelson]

If, as seems reasonable to assume, Aaron believed his family were trying to poison him, then one can only guess as to his opinion of the motivations of complete strangers. He may have had them down as agents of his family, sent to spy on him. Who knows? We cannot get inside his head.

Brilliant deduction, Robert. I never thought of that. It would explain his behavior for the last couple of years before he was permanently confined.