Arbitrary Selective Rejection and Acceptence of Coincidences

[Chris]

But isn't that even more odd? Is it being suggested that the patient might not be insane? Which is why he is released in three days?

I think he was taken to the workhouse and it was suggested he was insane, and then he was assessed there. The first time they decided he wasn't certifiable, but the second time they decided he was.

[Trevor Marriott]

Yes I've noted this in the thread, a 'O' sometimes written as a 2 and Chis George seems to confirm this…

But isn't that even more odd? Is it being suggested that the patient might not be insane? Which is why he is released in three days?

Yours Jeff

Following an arrest or after being taken to a workhouse a person could only be lawfully detained for three days and then had to be taken before a justice to determine whether that person should be released or further detained. The Justice of the Peace had the power to then authorize a doctor to carry out a full mental assessment.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Jeff Leahy]

But the Fact that they released him at this time suggests that the madness described by Jacob Cohen…had seen a level of deterioration over the six month period.

Might also explain why Anderson and Swanson believed they still might get a conviction if the ID happened shortly after July 1890?

Yours Jeff

[Robert]

Hi Jeff

Maybe I've missed something, but is there any evidence that Aaron was a drinker? I know that BS man was supposed to be tipsy, but I thought Aaron's build was slight.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff

Maybe I've missed something, but is there any evidence that Aaron was a drinker? I know that BS man was supposed to be tipsy, but I thought Aaron's build was slight.

I think we don't know for certain is the answer to everyone of these questions Robert.

RE: Alcohol. Its common for Schizophrenics to become addicted to Alcohol, recently Grass and weed are common. And if we suppose aaron was the killer, Alcohol would be a catalyst that can turn people 'Psychotic'

So I'm saying if we suppose Aaron the Killer then Alcohol would seem a probable factor and once placed out of that environment you could expect him to improve for periods of time.

Schzophrenics can sometimes appear drunk also.

Aarons family later bought a pub so I think we can assume it wasn't against their culture to drink. Landlords usually do.

RE: His size and build. Its not known for certain in Autumn 1888. Could he appear more rounded. I have a picture of Morris Lubnowski in front of me and I'd say solid. Put a heavy trench Coat on and hunch his shoulders, perhaps the Skinney Taylor Schwartz would say broad shoulders.

But we have know way of knowing for certain

Yours Jeff

[Chris]

Maybe I've missed something, but is there any evidence that Aaron was a drinker? I know that BS man was supposed to be tipsy, but I thought Aaron's build was slight.

I'd have thought that if he was a heavy drinker it would have been mentioned by Jacob Cohen to Dr Houchin.

[Errata]

It may also be that Aaron made improvement at first. Once he was cut off from the catalyst, alcohol, its what you would expect.

Schizophrenia is an illness that comes and goes. Like waves. People with Bi polar also have these manic phases. and again alcohol effects them in a different way to you or I , they are often compulsive and obsessive.

Yours Jeff

Alcohol affects the mentally ill exactly the same as it affects you. It's a CNS depressant, it works as a depressant. It actually has little effect at all on schizophrenics, who take to drinking to blunt the delusions and hallucinations. And it works. Schizophrenia symptoms cause alcoholism. Not the other way around. And alcohol was used both then and now for self medicating Bipolar disorder. It can break a manic episode, where the vast majority of delusions and hallucinations occur. On the other hand, drinking while depressed is one of the most common predictors of a successful suicide, so it's certainly not a foolproof management plan.

Today of course you cannot consume alcohol if you are Schizophrenic or Bipolar because it nullifies the medication used to treat both disorders. A medicated, well managed Schizophrenic can trigger an attack by drinking, because the alcohol blocks the medication. The effect is exactly like stopping your meds entirely, with the added benefit of probably crapping out your kidneys. But no one in 1888 was medicated for Bipolar or Schizophrenia, so there was no drug interaction. There was no loss of control due to alcohol, because sufferers were not being controlled in any way.

The typical sequence of events is that an alcoholic Schizophrenic will start to relapse. They will hear voices, have compulsions, not irresistible as of yet, but frightening. That's when they start drinking. And it works to a small extent. The alcohol treats nothing, but when drunk they can ignore the symptoms. Until they can't. A drunk schizophrenic is more likely to out themselves as being in the midst of an episode because their filter is gone. But not by more than a few days, at which point the delusion will have taken such a hold that hiding the symptoms is impossible. Alcohol outs the sufferer, but does not cause the suffering.

There has long been the notion that alcohol makes schizophrenics violent. And that's true to an extent. 7% of alcoholic schizophrenics are violent while less than 1% of non alcoholic schizophrenics are violent. Of course, 35% of non mentally ill alcoholics are violent, so we are still left with the unfortunate truth that apparently mental illness pacifies the sufferer.

Cutting off the drink doesn't make a schizophrenic better. It simply forces them to deal with their symptoms while sober.

[Jeff Leahy]

Alcohol affects the mentally ill exactly the same as it affects you. It's a CNS depressant, it works as a depressant. It actually has little effect at all on schizophrenics, who take to drinking to blunt the delusions and hallucinations. And it works. Schizophrenia symptoms cause alcoholism. Not the other way around. And alcohol was used both then and now for self medicating Bipolar disorder. It can break a manic episode, where the vast majority of delusions and hallucinations occur. On the other hand, drinking while depressed is one of the most common predictors of a successful suicide, so it's certainly not a foolproof management plan.

Today of course you cannot consume alcohol if you are Schizophrenic or Bipolar because it nullifies the medication used to treat both disorders. A medicated, well managed Schizophrenic can trigger an attack by drinking, because the alcohol blocks the medication. The effect is exactly like stopping your meds entirely, with the added benefit of probably crapping out your kidneys. But no one in 1888 was medicated for Bipolar or Schizophrenia, so there was no drug interaction. There was no loss of control due to alcohol, because sufferers were not being controlled in any way.

The typical sequence of events is that an alcoholic Schizophrenic will start to relapse. They will hear voices, have compulsions, not irresistible as of yet, but frightening. That's when they start drinking. And it works to a small extent. The alcohol treats nothing, but when drunk they can ignore the symptoms. Until they can't. A drunk schizophrenic is more likely to out themselves as being in the midst of an episode because their filter is gone. But not by more than a few days, at which point the delusion will have taken such a hold that hiding the symptoms is impossible. Alcohol outs the sufferer, but does not cause the suffering.

There has long been the notion that alcohol makes schizophrenics violent. And that's true to an extent. 7% of alcoholic schizophrenics are violent while less than 1% of non alcoholic schizophrenics are violent. Of course, 35% of non mentally ill alcoholics are violent, so we are still left with the unfortunate truth that apparently mental illness pacifies the sufferer.

Cutting off the drink doesn't make a schizophrenic better. It simply forces them to deal with their symptoms while sober.

Somewhere on jtrforums is the Finland survey. Its quite unique as they are one of the few countries that categorise various mental symptoms when collating statistics. They conclude that Schizophrenics are in a slightly higher category to be violent than the average member of the population but this statistic could well be caused by increased statistical addiction to alcohol.

A bit chicken and egg. But if your saying that Schizophrenics are more dangerous when under the influence of Alcohol, then surely it follows that they are likely to be less dangerous once removed from that environment.

Indeed that is how I understood the condition would behave when talking with am expert in the field. Although obviously as you say, modern treatments involve drugs that wouldn't have been available back in 1888.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=19488 Schizophrenia and Homocidal behaviour

Yours Jeff

[Batman]

Yes a number of prominent Ripper theorists have excluded Stride including Don Rumblow. Her murder is certainly more problematic as a ripper victim, which is why I believe so many favour the Lawende conclusion.

Of the more prominent authors/historians it is Martin Fido who drops Stride. As far as I know Donald Rumbelow accepts Stride. I think he accepts canonicity. Evans seems to have doubts over MJK but that may have changed.

[Scott Nelson]

But the Fact that they released him at this time suggests that the madness described by Jacob Cohen…had seen a level of deterioration over the six month period.

Or hadn't yet built up to the level described by Cohen when Aaron was confined to the asylum. Jacob Cohen only gave "evidence" when Aaron entered Colney Hatch.

[Jeff Leahy]

Of the more prominent authors/historians it is Martin Fido who drops Stride. As far as I know Donald Rumbelow accepts Stride. I think he accepts canonicity. Evans seems to have doubts over MJK but that may have changed.

I can only say that the last conference I was at Don Rumblow gave a lecture dismissing Stride. It was the same one I quoted Tom Wescott to him in questions and answers…

And for the record I'm with Tom


Or hadn't yet built up to the level described by Cohen when Aaron was confined to the asylum. Jacob Cohen only gave "evidence" when Aaron entered Colney Hatch.


Hi Scott Still haven't had a chance to chase your Cohen article..It gets busy here as I'm also trying to earn a living. But I am most interested in anything you have to add, as always

Many tHanks
Yours Jeff

PS Just out of humour and given my last post this is rather fun : http://www.ted.com/talks/jon_ronson_...sychopath_test

[Batman]

Of the more prominent authors/historians it is Martin Fido who drops Stride. As far as I know Donald Rumbelow accepts Stride. I think he accepts canonicity. Evans seems to have doubts over MJK but that may have changed.

I can only say that the last conference I was at Don Rumblow gave a lecture dismissing Stride. It was the same one I quoted Tom Wescott to him in questions and answers…

And for the record I'm with Tom

Do you have a link I can read up on this please. Thanks.

[Jeff Leahy]

Do you have a link I can read up on this please. Thanks.

AH! it was some time ago… I was with Caz..most of the weekend.

guess…2012 Brick lane hotel conference

My partner is saying she has photos on her Facebook so I will try and pin down tomorrow…

But I think 2012…Jake and I gave a lecture at that conference on the Making of Definitive Story

Yours Jeff

PS for those on my Facebook…Rob Clack and Jake luukanen and Jeff Leahy and Mr Diddles…2011…doesn't time fly

[Robert]

This one?

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=11018&page=3

[Errata]

Somewhere on jtrforums is the Finland survey. Its quite unique as they are one of the few countries that categorise various mental symptoms when collating statistics. They conclude that Schizophrenics are in a slightly higher category to be violent than the average member of the population but this statistic could well be caused by increased statistical addiction to alcohol.

A bit chicken and egg. But if your saying that Schizophrenics are more dangerous when under the influence of Alcohol, then surely it follows that they are likely to be less dangerous once removed from that environment.

Indeed that is how I understood the condition would behave when talking with am expert in the field. Although obviously as you say, modern treatments involve drugs that wouldn't have been available back in 1888.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=19488 Schizophrenia and Homocidal behaviour

Yours Jeff

First of all, never accept mental health statistics from Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland or New Zealand. Which sounds like the beginning of a joke, but it isn't. These countries have dramatically skewed numbers in the Mental Illness department. There's a reason Finland (and Norway) categorize by symptom. Their mentally ill population is much larger than the US or Britain. Icelandic people and New Zealanders are very odd, but frighteningly sane. To the point that American shrinks of my acquaintance in the 50s traveled to both countries convinced that there was a diagnostic problem like there is in South America. There wasn't. Their statistics are relevant to them alone, and no one is really sure why. And despite that, Nordic countries have some of the fewest shrinks per capita in first world nations.

On the other hand, it sounds like the survey you are referring to has been misinterpreted slightly. There was a similar study here in the states done right after one of the shootings at the White House fence that found that Schizophrenics were more loaded for violence than an average person, they have more problems, brain collapse causes mood lability, their lives kind of suck, they are far more often the victims of violence, and they are losing the ability to express themselves coherently. Of all the factors we think of that contribute to violence, schizophrenics have the highest concentration per person. The average schizophrenic ticks seven boxes to a normal person's two or three. But we also track actual violence, and Schizophrenics, and any mentally ill person is vastly less likely to be violent than a normal person. Even within the subcategory of mental illness, schizophrenics are less violent than mood disorders or autism, and Bipolar only runs at about 2%. Now a schizophrenic is more likely to kill someone than any other disorder, but mania is a very close second and in both cases it is most often an accident. But schizophrenics also typically don't show up anywhere in the other violent crime categories, like rape or arson. And out of anyone they are the ones most likely to die from defenestration. I can't believe someone paid for that to be studied, but if you ever want to fork over $500,000 to find out who is most likely to throw themselves out a window, save your money. It's schizophrenics, then prostitutes, then businessmen.

We also don't know he was a schizophrenic. The age of onset and symptoms described make it a reasonable option, but so is toxicity, brain tumor, mental collapse, a form of TBI, straight mania, even some kinds of epilepsy. And it could also be something really rare. Wilson's disease, tuberculosis, Addison's or Cushing's, Scurvy, Pick's disease, early onset Alzheimer's, foreign body infection, hell even shingles. And that's just off the top of my head. The brain and body are weird places. They don't always react as advertised. We are supposed to think horses not zebras. But there are far more common reasons for delusions and hallucinations than Schizophrenia. It's comparatively rare. Drunks on the other hand are not. Nor is fever or ergot.

And frankly, schizophrenics in that time period died young. They were rarely full blown onset for more than a decade. Kosminski lived about a decade longer than an untreated schizophrenic should have in that time. He certainly should have been catatonic or bed bound (and incontinent) the last couple of years of his life. And there's no indication he was. He honestly could have had just about anything.

There are many experts out there, and I never insist that someone disregard a source for no better reason than they disagree with me. But it is vitally important that if you are going to to use an expert that a: First you talk to a diagnostician conveying to them all of the known symptoms (don't just assume someone is a schizophrenic and only give them that information. That leads to confirmation bias.) b: when you want to introduce something new into the mix, like say alcohol, always stipulate that the person is unmedicated, and likely does not know their own diagnosis.

But I'll tell you this. No one I have ever presented these symptoms to has thought he was Schizophrenic. Manic or Schizoaffective. A few votes for industrial poisoning.