Is Kosminski still the best suspect we have?

[Abby Normal]

Certainly, Jason: I don't feel that the evidence is strong against any of them. That's not a cop-out, by the way.

I'll expand on that a little. Stronger cases have been made for Bury, Klosowski and even George Hutchinson, in the first two instances because they were known misogynists who murdered women, and in the second for details of Hutchinson's whereabouts, movements and (arguably) suspicious behaviour at the time of Mary Kelly's death. I don't believe that either was Jack the Ripper, but they have stronger claims to infamy than Kosminski, whose "foreign madman" status might have been sufficient reason, perhaps the only reason, to have brought him to the attention of the police.

Hi again Sam
and again agree with you here-I put hutch, Bury, chapman, as well as Kelly ahead of Koz too, for the resons you indicate.

[Abby Normal]

Can you agree that at the very least its reliability can be called into question, given that it is not an official record?

In my view we have at different tiers of suspect.

Tier 1a
People who were investigated by the police as a suspect, and where we do not have a compelling reason to dismiss them. I believe Kosminski falls into this category. I would not put Druitt into this category but some would. George Chapman may be in this category.

Tier 1b
People who were not investigated by the police as a suspect, but who can be placed at a murder scene. Hello, Hutchinson and Cross.

Tier 2
People who were investigated by the police as a suspect, but where we have a compelling reason to dismiss them. Ostrog, for example.

Tier 3
"They were in London at the time" - most suspects.

Tier 4
"We can't even prove they were in London at the time" - Vincent Van Gogh, James Maybrick, etc.

In this view, Kosminski is indeed one of the stronger suspects, but it's a tallest midget contest.

LOL. Tallest midget contest-hahahaha. Exactly-or as I always say-theyre all weak suspects, some just less weak than others.

[Abby Normal]

And this is the issue for many, they are judging what Anderson wrote based on their view of the man, a view that others would argue with.

However that does not explain away MM or Swanson, who at least it appears both considered him.

Yes there is no official records, although for all of its faults, of which there are many, the memorandum must have been intended as a briefing for someone surely?


Yes , The Swanson marginalia could be wholly or partially faked; although the evidence of providence and handwriting does not really support such a view.

Yes , Anderson may have been antisemitic, its an opinion all need to asses themselves and not rely on the words of others.

And yes the memorandum is full of mistakes and it is unclear why it was written.
The old theory that it was done to clear Cutbush because he was related to a VERY senior officer, has fallen has it now seems they were not related.

So why was it written? That is a real mystery, and who for?



And so we can call all 3 sources into question, one should not however forget the other half source, that of Littlechild, who derides Anderson's theory, so he must have known about it too, right?


And the truth remains we have no evidence, other than the disputed ID.

However we do know that he was probably not a babbling idiot at his court appearance in the dog incident, thus countering the often made claim that he would not have been able to commit the murders because of his mental state, a claim based on a report given when he was incarcerated, and which appears to be at odds with the court appearance.

We do know that he at one stage lived right next door to the Stride murder.
We know he was taken into "care" briefly 6 months before his final committal the reason for this is unclear.
We know that when incarcerated finally, to begin begin with at least, he could be violent.
We know that eventually he was incapable of anything.
We also know he was buried away from the rest of his family.

That is it, all we know.


While I personally do favour Koz, i also always make it clear that I am more than happy to accept that we have the wrong Koz, indeed I am happy to accept that it was someone like him whom Sagar and Cox followed.

Indeed I think on many counts Levy is a far better suspect.


I think the closest we can get at present is to say that by the mid 90's some officers had the opinion that the killer was called Kozminski.

Another small group, MM and Littlechild had heard of this but did not agree.

That suggests to me he was a "suspect" maybe for some a strong one, for others a weak one.




Steve

Good post El.
again I would add, mainly because many people use his apparent non violent behavior as reason against his validity, that his threatening his sister with a knife is significant. at least IMHO.

[Elamarna]

Good post El.
again I would add, mainly because many people use his apparent non violent behavior as reason against his validity, that his threatening his sister with a knife is significant. at least IMHO.

In addition of course it is recorded in his Colney Hatch records that he took up a chair against an attendant.

Given that the records are sparse to say he least we cannot make a reasoned argument as to if this was a one off or not.

What is clear is that 20 years after he is locked away he is incapable of anything, be it threatening or not.


Steve

[MysterySinger]

Is it beyond doubt that Kos was the person who was identified or just an assumption that it was him?

[Abby Normal]

Hi again Sam
and again agree with you here-I put hutch, Bury, chapman, as well as Kelly ahead of Koz too, for the resons you indicate.

Hi again sam

also, re your last post and "foreign madman" idea-again, pretty much agree with you but would just add that I cant help but think that threatening his sister with a knife might have been the final straw for the family and thus they reported the incident to the police and or doctors and this is what initially brought him to the attention of the police.

it would certainly get my attention. especially if I had a preconceived notion about a foreign, insane, violent and JEWISH suspect (cough...Anderson...cough). and then check the "lists" and hes on there. and then set up an ID and the jewish witness identifies him but wont swear to it.

But again, in my mind its the knife incident that probably started it all.

[Abby Normal]

Is it beyond doubt that Kos was the person who was identified or just an assumption that it was him?

no its not beyond doubt, but in my mind its pretty certain it was him. Hes named by MM. Hes not named by Anderson but swanson names him and confirms the ID. the rest of the circs match up as well.

[Elamarna]

Is it beyond doubt that Kos was the person who was identified or just an assumption that it was him?

Hi MS

Its not certain there was even an identification if we are looking objectively; However two senior police officer say there was: Anderson who does not give a name and Swanson who does.

However both Officers make additional statements that do not seem to fit Aaron Kozminski, that The suspect died soon after he was locked up.
A third officer, Macnaghten seems at one stage to say that the suspect look like someone seen by an unnamed Policeman near Mitre Square.

It really is not straight forward, even for those who think it may be true, or at least based on such.

If it took place, we do not know where, other than somewhere Swanson referred to as the "seaside home", which may or may not refer to a police convalescence home in Hove.

Neither do we know when or whom the witness was.
It is normally suggested this was either Lawende or Schwartz, but it could have been someone else, either the unknown policeman, if he existed or even a completely unknown person.


I personally think that an ID did take place, the next question is was it Aaron Koz or someone else? We have No first name given.

That is I think a clear summary of the situation with regards to the identification.

[Sam Flynn]

well I agree about Anderson. nonethe less I'm not so sure you can write it off as "anectotal". they were there, police reports have been lost-which Koz might have been in. and MMs memorandum is in the files is it not?

Well, MM's memo was only saying that Kos - and Druitt and Ostrog, don't forget - were more likely suspects than Cutbush. He might easily have plucked another 3 names out of the air, "any one of whom" could have suited his purpose just as well, in which case we'd quite possibly never have heard of Kosminski at all.

[Abby Normal]

Well, MM's memo was only saying that Kos - and Druitt and Ostrog, don't forget - were more likely suspects than Cutbush. He might easily have plucked another 3 names out of the air, "any one of whom" could have suited his purpose just as well, in which case we'd quite possibly never have heard of Kosminski at all.

Well there's Anderson and Swanson so we probably would still have heard of him.

[Sam Flynn]

Well there's Anderson and Swanson so we probably would still have heard of him.

Anderson doesn't mention him, and it can't be ruled out that Swanson picked up the name "Kosminski" from the Macnaghten Memorandum. It may be significant that neither Macnaghten nor Swanson give Kosminski's first name; perhaps neither knew it.

[John Wheat]

Can you agree that at the very least its reliability can be called into question, given that it is not an official record?

In my view we have at different tiers of suspect.

Tier 1a
People who were investigated by the police as a suspect, and where we do not have a compelling reason to dismiss them. I believe Kosminski falls into this category. I would not put Druitt into this category but some would. George Chapman may be in this category.

Tier 1b
People who were not investigated by the police as a suspect, but who can be placed at a murder scene. Hello, Hutchinson and Cross.

Tier 2
People who were investigated by the police as a suspect, but where we have a compelling reason to dismiss them. Ostrog, for example.

Tier 3
"They were in London at the time" - most suspects.

Tier 4
"We can't even prove they were in London at the time" - Vincent Van Gogh, James Maybrick, etc.

In this view, Kosminski is indeed one of the stronger suspects, but it's a tallest midget contest.

Hi Damaso

I would say that saying that the reliability of the evidence against Kosminski can be called into question is a massive understatement. I also have to disagree with you're comments regarding Kosminski and other suspects. In my opinion and this is no secret nor something I haven't said before is that WH Bury is the best Ripper suspect by a country mile. And hypothetically if it could be revealed who the Ripper was I would put money on The Ripper being Bury.

Cheers John

[Patrick S]

Hi Damaso

I would say that saying that the reliability of the evidence against Kosminski can be called into question is a massive understatement. I also have to disagree with you're comments regarding Kosminski and other suspects. In my opinion and this is no secret nor something I haven't said before is that WH Bury is the best Ripper suspect by a country mile. And hypothetically if it could be revealed who the Ripper was I would put money on The Ripper being Bury.

Cheers John

If you were given a choice between Bury and "the field", you'd still take Bury? That's not say that the name has to be someone among the "suspects" or "candidates", or whatever we wish to call those who've been put forward over the past thirteen decades. You'd collect if it were anyone NOT named W. H. Bury.

[MysterySinger]

Hi MS

Its not certain there was even an identification if we are looking objectively; However two senior police officer say there was: Anderson who does not give a name and Swanson who does.

However both Officers make additional statements that do not seem to fit Aaron Kozminski, that The suspect died soon after he was locked up.
A third officer, Macnaghten seems at one stage to say that the suspect look like someone seen by an unnamed Policeman near Mitre Square.

It really is not straight forward, even for those who think it may be true, or at least based on such.

If it took place, we do not know where, other than somewhere Swanson referred to as the "seaside home", which may or may not refer to a police convalescence home in Hove.

Neither do we know when or whom the witness was.
It is normally suggested this was either Lawende or Schwartz, but it could have been someone else, either the unknown policeman, if he existed or even a completely unknown person.


I personally think that an ID did take place, the next question is was it Aaron Koz or someone else? We have No first name given.

That is I think a clear summary of the situation with regards to the identification.

Thanks, that's what I suspected. Only it seemed from some posts that there had been a definite ID. Thought I must have missed something. Seems the only thing they really had on him was the dog.

[John Wheat]

If you were given a choice between Bury and "the field", you'd still take Bury? That's not say that the name has to be someone among the "suspects" or "candidates", or whatever we wish to call those who've been put forward over the past thirteen decades. You'd collect if it were anyone NOT named W. H. Bury.

Yes I would take Bury against the rest of the field. I would pay out if it wasn't Bury. Just for clarification.