Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl - Part 2

[RockySullivan]

That's absolutely untrue.

My apologies

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff

I'd just like to see some analysis of the dating. We don't have any really. So far as I can make out from the book, the only science on this said the dye was organic, which means it could have been made at any time up to today lunchtime.

The rest was, it seems, all done from photos. The only people to do it from physical contact with the shawl, were Sothebys years ago who came up with the Edwardian silk-screen notion.

If I read Edwards correctly:

1. Christies thought it was early, English or possibly continental.

2. Sothebys thought it later, possibly French.

3. Thalmann thought it early, not English, but beyond that, no real clue. Only when pressed by Edwards for a Russian origin, did she say it could have. Her real thoughts were "I honestly can't say" and "this is a bit of a mystery to me".

Now that, to me, is not analysis.

Yeah thats as I understand. And we still have no conclusion who made the dating claimed in the A to Z or whether they worked from pictures or not?

So as far as I can see we still have a large number of different 'expert' opinions, which should really be fairly easy to clarify?

Bear in mind that we also had someone with some background on these boards who appeared happy that it was hand printed at least. But just because its hand printed or Painted doesn't on its own confirm its age as I understand, just that had it be screen printed it could not have been old enough.

Yours Jeff

[lynn cates]

truth

Hello Mick.

" If Edwards is a snake oil man, and I suspect he is, it doesn't follow that those who helped, perhaps not even knowing the first thing about him, are somehow suspect as well.

After all, the stats that Chris et al are pursuing will, if proven correct, be a huge nail in RE's coffin."

Quite.

Let's not blame Chris in any of this. He has done yeoman work to get to the truth. And THAT is what counts.

Cheers.
LC

[Chris]

My apologies

Accepted.

[pinkmoon]

Hi Pinkmoon

I don't think the sincerity of the Parlours or the Simpson family has ever been called into question. Clearly they believe the MAterial was a shawl taken from the murder scene.

At some point it was taken to experts, still never clarified, who believed the material was screen printed. Thus making it impossible to be the genuine artefact.

It would appear this was in er. As a number of new examinations seem to say the material is hand or woodblock printed.

Of corse we all have family legends that appear not to be exactly as we thought them as children, and as many here I had my own memories of my Aunt taking me around london and the east end as a child. And while much we are told appears to be wrong.. I believe the Royal connection was popular at that time thanks to Barlow and Watts.. Sometimes kernels of fact remain.. Like there was a famous killer called Jack the Ripper.

So why oral histories should always be treated with caution, I see no reason that some basic facts might not contain kernels of truth.

So far there is no evidence that the Shawl was anywhere near Mitre square.

However if a positive DNA match could be made to the Eddows descendant, especially if it was proved to be arterial blood as some have claimed. Then the 'kernels' of that story might give us some reason to start questioning if it could have been.

Personally I'd like an independent analysis of the 1820-30 dating claim being made given what I've read on this thread. But just because it seems Aparent Amos was nowhere near Mitre Square on the night in question doesn't mean that he may have been covering up for someone who was or just 'caging' a few drinks off the story, much like Pearly Poll.

Just some thoughts

Jeff

My dad comes from east end his grandparents lived in Whitechapel during murders the story my dad first told me was that Jack was a doctor who drowned in the Thames after the murder of the women who was in the room jack decorated the room with her intestines before jumping into the Thames there are a few basic elements of truth in this story like most stories .I have no doubt that pc Amos at some stage came into possession of this shawl and it has been passed down through the family but to say it's was taken from a murder site is just too far fetched it defies all common sense.

[Jeff Leahy]

My dad comes from east end his grandparents lived in Whitechapel during murders the story my dad first told me was that Jack was a doctor who drowned in the Thames after the murder of the women who was in the room jack decorated the room with her intestines before jumping into the Thames there are a few basic elements of truth in this story like most stories .I have no doubt that pc Amos at some stage came into possession of this shawl and it has been passed down through the family but to say it's was taken from a murder site is just too far fetched it defies all common sense.

Possibly the story of Atlantis is the most intriguing for such snippets or 'Kernals'

Personally I'm of little doubt that a race of people were destroyed by some sizmic event some time in the recess of human history. And there are a number of civilisations that the event may have been confused with..

Its finding the missing pieces that can at last prove the oral accounts.

Yours Jeff

[pinkmoon]

Possibly the story of Atlantis is the most intriguing for such snippets or 'Kernals'

Personally I'm of little doubt that a race of people were destroyed by some sizmic event some time in the recess of human history. And there are a number of civilisations that the event may have been confused with..

Its finding the missing pieces that can at last prove the oral accounts.

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff,have you had a look on Mr Edwards website it now says he has conclusively proved who jack the ripper was !!!!!!now that's sizmic.

[anna]

Just wait and see how this plays out.

Mr Edwards has said a lot of things...he's a North London property developer,so he knows how to sell.

The news is that his shop is closing,as it was on a six month lease..so anyone thinking of having their photo taken with his dummy for their personalised Xmas cards,had better hurry up !!!!!

We have to take all this with a pinch of salt,as we have more important research work to do.

Patti is bringing out a new book next year...and yes,her's will be definite proof of Sickert being JTR 100% too......

[mickreed]

The news is that his shop is closing,as it was on a six month lease..so anyone thinking of having their photo taken with his dummy for their personalised Xmas cards,had better hurry up !!!!!:

Well, he won't have time to run his shop if, as I posted a couple of days back, the reports in the Barnet Post are true. Namely that he and his forensic team, are going into the cold case solving game.

Watch out UCOS.

[pinkmoon]

Just wait and see how this plays out.

Mr Edwards has said a lot of things...he's a North London property developer,so he knows how to sell.

The news is that his shop is closing,as it was on a six month lease..so anyone thinking of having their photo taken with his dummy for their personalised Xmas cards,had better hurry up !!!!!

We have to take all this with a pinch of salt,as we have more important research work to do.

Patti is bringing out a new book next year...and yes,her's will be definite proof of Sickert being JTR 100% too......

The six months lease aspect speaks volumes.

[tji]

Hi all

I think that we can say Chris is trustworthy. I have dealt with him on numerous occasion's and have never had any concern's about sharing research/ideas I am looking into that I am not ready to publish and I imagine a lot of other researcher's are the same. (On the same note he has never shared information with me that is connected with other parties)

While question's have to be asked to the connection of the acknowledgement I don't believe it is something he has kept quiet about intentionally, I was aware of it. Chris is acknowledged in numerous works, he just doesn't brag about them.

Tj

[Chris]

While question's have to be asked to the connection of the acknowledgement I don't believe it is something he has kept quiet about intentionally, I was aware of it. Chris is acknowledged in numerous works, he just doesn't brag about them.

Thanks, Tracy.

Perhaps I should also make it clear that when I spoke to Russell Edwards last year it was on condition that what he told me would remain confidential, which it did.

But after the news broke I did mention to a number of people privately (including Tracy) what my involvement had been, and I also mentioned quite soon after that on part 1 of this thread that I could confirm the genealogical connection of 'M' with Aaron Kozminski, and that Russell Edwards wasn't provided with her contact details until after the date given in the book for the extraction of the material from the shawl.

So there's certainly been no concealment.

[Jeff Leahy]

Just wait and see how this plays out.

Mr Edwards has said a lot of things...he's a North London property developer,so he knows how to sell.

The news is that his shop is closing,as it was on a six month lease..so anyone thinking of having their photo taken with his dummy for their personalised Xmas cards,had better hurry up !!!!!

We have to take all this with a pinch of salt,as we have more important research work to do.

Patti is bringing out a new book next year...and yes,her's will be definite proof of Sickert being JTR 100% too......

Yep thats the size of it…But then I've never spoken with a commissioning editor that is interested in making a TV series/program that doesn't state this fairly infactically…I believe Trevor Marriot's did.

Book publishers seem a little more forgiving but I think they know what sells like the next man..

Yours Jeff

PS I've not all the time seen eye to eye with Chris on 'casebook' however I don't think anyone should undervalue his considerable contribution to research or his professional integrity. I always read his posts carefully however as he tends to mean exactly what he says unlike some of us who just spirt stuff out.

[Observer]

So if another expert says there has been a mistake made - then what? It is suddenly ok to accept what Chris is saying all along?

Tracy

If, if, if. You're full of if's. Is it Dr J's mistake which appears in the book?

[PaulB]

I don't think anyone should be accusing Russell Edwards of being a snake oil salesman.