Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl - Part 2

[Mabuse]

This all means that there is only one source for this 'family story - DMH. I'd assumed from Mabuse's earlier telling of the story, that it was a widely-known story within the family. My fault, probably.

Actually, that is a good point. It is not entirely clear, but the implication is that the story was told in the family, but this would be the generations coming after David Melville Hayes. He seems to be the "keeper of lore" in this matter.

I wasn't going to badger this person with questions, because that's uncool, so I just had to go by what they willingly told me.

They actually said "that is the story my [familial relative] told me..." "... from a very young age." In context, DMH.

This person said they were actually completely unaware of the shawl until DMH's mother passed away.

One might gather that this is not a hugely important part of family tradition, since the item was rarely removed from the chest, DMH was leery of it, and it was unknown to the younger generations of the family until it came out of hiding. This might suggest that it was rarely talked about, supporting DMH as the source of the legend in its current form.

It's not clear, either, how other members of the family view the veracity of the tale, but this particular person has expressed their doubt, for the very same reasons that we do; oral histories distort in the retelling. They don't appear to doubt that the central elements of the story are true, that Amos Simpson got the shawl and that it was associated with a Ripper murder, just the details.

[Mabuse]

Oh, one more thing: According to them, David Melville Hayes' Aunt was going to burn the shawl when clearing out the house, but it was saved by DMH's mother.

They also said that it had been something of a "family myth" for a very long time.

[curious4]

Washing silks

Hello all

Mrs Beeton recommends soaking in cold water overnight, repeated if the stain does not disappear (as in the case of a silk handerchief stained with snuff). The garment was then washed with soap and lukewarm water with a handful of salt in the final rinsing water. In the case of a black silk dress which has turned "rusty", ordinary spirits (not quite sure what constitutes ordinary spirits) should be added to the last rinse. I would say that bleach was a definite no-no. Not from Mrs B but elswhere on the internet, ox-gall soap would be used to remove stains from wool or silk. Still in use today. Made me wonder how that would affect dna samples. From a previous washing, I mean.

Best wishes
C4

P.S. This is presuming that the shawl had been washed before the event, of course.

[curious4]

Washing silks

Hello all

Mrs Beeton recommends soaking in cold water overnight, repeated if the stain does not disappear (as in the case of a silk handerchief stained with snuff). The garment was then washed with soap and lukewarm water with a handful of salt in the final rinsing water. In the case of a black silk dress which has turned "rusty", ordinary spirits (not quite sure what constitutes ordinary spirits) should be added to the last rinse. I would say that bleach was a definite no-no. Not from Mrs B but elswhere on the internet, ox-gall soap would be used to remove stains from wool or silk. Still in use today. Made me wonder how that would affect dna samples. From a previous washing, I mean.

Best wishes
C4

P.S. This is presuming that the shawl had been washed before the event, of course.

[sauropod]

Hello all

Mrs Beeton recommends soaking in cold water overnight ...

Not, presumably, if the item has non-colorfast dye on it, since a good soak would cause the colors to run, ruining the garment.

[pinkmoon]

Thanks Pink. Charity doesn't come into it. I think the book is a stinker. I just don't make claims of crookery without evidence. I prefer, in the first instance, the stuff-up over the conspiracy. There is plenty to suggest the former, nothing, yet, to point to the latter.

And, for the record, I do feel that RE, deliberately or otherwise, plays very fast and loose with the facts. I do worry that JL seems still to be appearing alongside him in what I see as promotional events for the book. I do think that JL's reputation may be tainted by this association, but that's his problem, not mine.

As for RE's reputation, anyone who can use the fate of Kate Eddowes and the others, to sell JtR lip balm for 4 quid a go, deserves any flak going.

http://www.jacktherippertoursandstor...e/CategoryID/8

I will have to admit when I saw his gift shop website my heart sank just can't take any of it seriously sorry

[Hercule Poirot]

His shop should offer the "Jack the Ripper Intimacy Kit" which would contain a large surgical knife, a black cloak, a bag of London fog and a silk shawl. An optional DNA collection kit would be a 'killer' don't you think (Buccal DNA Collector, a Buccal DNA Transport Pouch with Desiccant, a Subject Identification Form, an Instruction Sheet, Ink, Alcohol Pad, Gloves, Return Envelope, and Evidence tape). LOL

[Bridewell]

"The fact that the blue dye came off so easily told us one piece of information: the shawl could never have been used as an outer garment, because rain would have made the blue dye leak. This underlined that it could not have belonged to Catherine Eddowes: with her itinerant lifestyle it would certainly have been exposed to rain. Just before her death she and her partner John had walked back to London from the hop fields to Kent, and because she had nowhere to live she had all her clothes on when she was murdered: there is no possibility that the shawl would never have been wet if it was hers."

Please someone tell me he doesn't use the evidence against Eddowes's ownership to advance a claim that it therefore belonged to Kosminski.

[mickreed]

Please someone tell me he doesn't use the evidence against Eddowes's ownership to advance a claim that it therefore belonged to Kosminski.

I'm never quite sure what he's bloody claiming, Bridewell, but given that (when asked if it could have come from Russia) his preferred shawl expert said:

I honestly can’t say, but it is possible. I don’t usually have a problem identifying shawls from Western Europe, but this is a bit of a mystery to me

And RE deduced therefore that Kosminski brought it from Europe with him, then anything is possible.

[mickreed]

His shop should offer the "Jack the Ripper Intimacy Kit" which would contain a large surgical knife, a black cloak, a bag of London fog and a silk shawl. An optional DNA collection kit would be a 'killer' don't you think (Buccal DNA Collector, a Buccal DNA Transport Pouch with Desiccant, a Subject Identification Form, an Instruction Sheet, Ink, Alcohol Pad, Gloves, Return Envelope, and Evidence tape). LOL

And a picture of Koalaminski. Dusty can help there.

[mickreed]

This person said they were actually completely unaware of the shawl until DMH's mother passed away.

One might gather that this is not a hugely important part of family tradition, since the item was rarely removed from the chest, DMH was leery of it, and it was unknown to the younger generations of the family until it came out of hiding. This might suggest that it was rarely talked about, supporting DMH as the source of the legend in its current form.

From memory, DMH's mother died in 1997. Following publication of Paul Harrison's book in 1991, the shawl had been on loan to Scotland Yard, and according to various versions of the story, was removed by the Parlours (with DMH's permission) and they were given custody of it for a number of years. This custody resulted in it being hawked around the countryside, gawped at, and otherwise manhandled. Even the DNA test done in 2006 was done at the Parlour's home and not in a lab.

Once the story went beyond the family with the publication of Harrison's book, and publicity gradually developed with the Parlours' book and the traipsing around the land, it became necessary to 'solidify' the story.

Now, I'm NOT saying that DMH invented things for the hell of it, but he was definitely asked various questions and may have dredged his memory banks for answers or speculations, which may then have become 'true' in his mind. After all, when recalling things from childhood, it's often true that we all recall possibilities as facts.

I shouldn't probably say this, but all this activity and speculation was certainly driving the potential price up for when the shawl was sold in 2007. I doubt it would have fetched ten bob before the story became well-known.

It's in this atmosphere that Mabuse's contact seems to have heard the story.

[curious4]

Not, presumably, if the item has non-colorfast dye on it, since a good soak would cause the colors to run, ruining the garment.

Hello Sauropod

I think that was the reason for soaking in cold water and washing in tepid. If the colours had been so water soluble, it would have been unusable - your clothes would have been ruined if the shawl was worn when it was raining. And anyone who has dyed a garment at home knows that salt (in the last rinse) would help to "set" the colours. Things had to be washable - no dry-cleaning in those days!

Best wishes
C4

[Mabuse]

Physics is physics. Water-based dyes printed on silk via wood or leather blocks are going to run in water no matter what temperature they are at.

You don't wash a silk shawl with water based-dyes in tepid, chilled or piping hot water, because in each situation they're going to run. The pattern is going to be a blurred mush.

And, no, you wouldn't wear it when it is rainy, any more than I would wear my nice suede leather shoes in the rain. You'd keep it indoors or, if you had to carry it, you'd wrap it up in a wax paper package, or such like.

[moonbegger]

What this person did say is that the shawl has never been washed.

They seem quite certain about this, but we must remember that they weren't around the whole time to know for sure.

Perhaps this can be tied in with another dubious tale , the one relating to the Bobby who apparently missed the culprit by a matter of minutes due to the bloodied water where the killer must have stopped to wash his hands ..

Clearly this was Amos washing the shawl before taking it home to his wife

cheers ,

moonbegger

[chastenor]

Has anybody pointed out....

I'm sorry, there are 120 pages of this and I got bored after about ten. Has anybody pointed out that even if the provenance of the shawl is reliable and even if Kosminski wanked over it, that doesn't prove that he was Jack the Ripper. Indeed, given the circumstances, it could be argued that it is more likely that Kosminski did wank over this prostitute's shawl than not. Plus, what is the consensus now about the diary? I have always thought that the evidence of the diary and Feldman's book was conclusive. Has anybody actually proved otherwise?