Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl - Part 2

[GUT]

You're quite right, Sauropod. And, unlike GUT, I forgot to say welcome. Sorry, and welcome.

Sure, RE doesn't come up with the daisy idea himself, but surely the first thing you would do is to see whether they are really Michaelmas daisies, particularly when you are going to erect an entire theoretical edifice around the significance of Michaelmas to the Ripper.

I quote from the book:

I also realized that, for the Michaelmas daisies to have real significance, they had to be connected to the Ripper.

This is ludicrous. They must be significant so they must be connected to the Ripper.

The corollary is that if they had no significance then they probably had nowt to do with Ripper.

Since they are clearly not daisies, then any significance to his overall argument passes me by.

G'day Mck

The significance of many of his arguments seems to be that he needed to fill pages.

Well that's how it appears to me anyway, some of his hypothesizing is so weak that it could make you laugh.

The Daisies
The Shawl is a dress
The dates of Michaelmas
The Shawl must have belonged to Kos

[drstrange169]

Hello Sauropod,


Some of the questions that arise from the book's explanations.


"The fact that the blue dye came off so easily told us one piece of information: the shawl could never have been used as an outer garment, because rain would have made the blue dye leak."

It poured with rain the night Mrs Eddowes was murdered, why doesn't the damage to the shawl reflect that?



"Many posters point out correctly that the shawl did not show up on any police evidence lists. Still, Edwards does argue that it was seen on Eddowes' body and reported in the press. Pages 95-96:
Her dress was made of green chintz, the pattern consisting of Michaelmas daisies."

The Shawl, by Edwards own words is "predominately brown" and he does not specifically show where the "michelmas daises" are on the shawl. They are not visible in any photograph published so far. The Chintz skirt is descibed as having "3 flounces, brown button on the waistband, jagged cut 6 1/2 incheslong from the waistband ..."

None of the above corresponds the the "shawl".


"We can only assume the press included this description of the chintz dress or skirt with the border of Michaelmas daisies in their reports because a journalist was either present at the scene and glimpsed the material (and despite the best efforts of the police, crime scenes were not kept secure as they are today), or that they talked to policemen who were there and who again mistook the distinctively patterned shawl for a skirt or dress."


What Edwards did not quote in his book about the press reports was the first part that specifically stated,

"The following is the official description of the body and clothing ..."

(my emphasis)


"... it does provide possible grounds for believing that a large garment patterned with Michaelmas daisies was at the Eddowes crime scene."


As the above documented evidence shows, that is NOT the case.



"Since it was not included in the police list (reproduced on pp. 93-94), it would have disappeared somewhere between the crime scene and the mortuary. "

Since it's not on the police lists and does not fit the press description, isn't it more logical to believe it wasn't actually there?



"... this scenario is not inconsistent with the Simpson family tradition."

The Simpson family tradition, as described by descendant David Melville-Hayes, noted down in the 1990's, was that Amos Simpson was the first to discover the body and took the shawl. His mother, the only person to actually have met Simpson, had no knowledge of how Simpson gained the shawl.

The mortuary story was not part of the family tradition back in the 1990's. The first we hear of it is in Edwards book.


This is were the problems lie, Edwards may well be right, but when you check Edwards book against the actual facts, all that arises is more questions and no answers.

[GUT]

Thanks to both GUT and mickreed for the welcomes!

"Yet he tries to persuade us that the dress she was said to be wearing (an outer garment surely) was the shawl. We are therefore asked to believe that the Ripper dressed her in the 5 minutes max that he had to kill her, and that the (allegedly present) press mistook this shawl for a dress."

I assumed that his theory was that the shawl was left draping or partially draping the body in such a way that it appeared, in the darkness and confusion, to be a garment she was wearing. Given how badly damaged the body was, I would assume the clothing was in great disarray, with torn pieces scattered everywhere.

"Moreover the shawl does NOT have a pattern made up of Michaelmas daisies."

I think there's room for doubt about this. The color scheme looks right to me, and the flowers seen on the shawl in the photo Edwards provides could be daisies. That's all I can really say without better photos and more knowledge of floral print designs.

Well I guess if the flowers "could" be dasies they could be gum leaves as well.

[mickreed]

Thanks to both GUT and mickreed for the welcomes!

"Yet he tries to persuade us that the dress she was said to be wearing (an outer garment surely) was the shawl. We are therefore asked to believe that the Ripper dressed her in the 5 minutes max that he had to kill her, and that the (allegedly present) press mistook this shawl for a dress."

I assumed that his theory was that the shawl was left draping or partially draping the body in such a way that it appeared, in the darkness and confusion, to be a garment she was wearing. Given how badly damaged the body was, I would assume the clothing was in great disarray, with torn pieces scattered everywhere.

We are told, by RE, that part of the shawl was cut away because it was blood-soaked. Admittedly when you dig deeper, it appears as though the previous owner only speculated that so as to explain why it had actually been cut up. The clothes that Eddowes was wearing were said, by the pathologist, to have 'not a speck' of blood on the front of them.

The only person to be interviewed about the shawl, and who actually knew Amos Simpson, said that 'nobody knew' how he got it. 'It got into his hands somehow'. (I paraphrase slightly). Apart from the previous owner of the shawl, the only other family member I know of was cited by Mabuse earlier in this discussion and apparently said that the family were 'very sceptical' of the story.

The only people to have no known reservations about the story are Edwards, and the bloke who sold him the shawl for an undisclosed, but apparently substantial, sum

[mickreed]

G'day Mck

The significance of many of his arguments seems to be that he needed to fill pages.

Well that's how it appears to me anyway, some of his hypothesizing is so weak that it could make you laugh.

The Daisies
The Shawl is a dress
The dates of Michaelmas
The Shawl must have belonged to Kos

G'day GUT

Yes, I reckon the 'meat of the book' would make a smallish pamphlet. I did laugh, but I felt like crying.

[mickreed]

Well I guess if the flowers "could" be dasies they could be gum leaves as well.

Perhaps it's koala semen on it GUT.

[mickreed]

Perhaps it's koala semen on it GUT.

And I know, from watching QI, that koala fingerprints are indistinguishable from human ones.

Maybe that's not all. And stop spitting on that screen, GUT!

[drstrange169]

Koalaminski!

[GUT]

Koalaminski!

G'day Dusty

Now you have a book, go for it lad.

[GUT]

And I know, from watching QI, that koala fingerprints are indistinguishable from human ones.

Maybe that's not all. And stop spitting on that screen, GUT!

Just had a thought [I know it was very lonely] maybe that's how the DNA got on it.

Someone told one of Kos's descendants that he was Jack and they laughed so hard they spit all over it.

Well about as much sense as most of what I've read by a certain author anyway.

[mickreed]

G'day Dusty

Now you have a book, go for it lad.

I can see the Mail on Sunday headline now.

Polish 'bear' rips shawl - puts in pouch

[mickreed]

Well about as much sense as most of what I've read by a certain author anyway.

Be accurate GUT. Makes more sense.

[drstrange169]

Previously undiscovered mug shot of Koalaminski

[GUT]

Previously undiscovered mug shot of Koalaminski

Can't be.

No shawl

[mickreed]

Previously undiscovered mug shot of Koalaminski

Must be getting old.

I nearly wet meself.