Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[The Good Michael]

On the basis that what actually has been proven (I think - losing track) is that the DNA could have come from a Polish Jew.

Surely if looking at this evidence Chapman should be tested and considered along with Kosminski.

Chapman wasn't Jewish.

Mike

[Magpie]

I doxastologically concur, Lynn!

[spyglass]

Regarding 'why would JtR carry around an 8ft cloth' remember, once you have folded it 4 or 5 times it would be no bigger than a teatowel or handkerchief. And as for why would have it? To wipe his blade, one would assume. Within the scenario of the book, perhaps once he realised it was blood spattered (on the now-cut-off corner) he discarded it, either wiped the blade on something else (apron?) or made his escape without pausing to wipe it on anything.

I have a better theory,
some have suggested that the victims were killed else where and put in place already dead.
This would explain how Eddowes was taken apart in such quick time and no one seeing or hearing anything.
So mixing a few theory's together...JTR was a copper, allowing him to go un-noticed, and Kosminski his accomplice.
What better way than to carry a body to Mitre Sq, wrapped in a table cloth, rolling the body into place, then hop it with copper taking said table cloth with him.


Oh Im forgetting...the table cloth had'nt been made yet, let alone at the scene.

[Scobie]

Chapman wasn't Jewish

Right, good point.

But Polish....so could be as good a match as Aaron?

[Pontius2000]

Right, good point.

But Polish....so could be as good a match as Aaron?

There is another point of contention and confusion and I think Chritopher would be much better qualified to try to answer than me.

But some of the numbers I've read within this thread are hard to believe. I'm not going back through hundreds of posts to try to find it now. But something to the tune that mtDNA would not narrow the specimen down to Kosminski, but rather include him within a group of, say, 40% of London's population that would also match. Is that where you're guessing that Koslowski may also match? I'd be interested in reading where they got that from, but it does NOT gel with what I've read. What I've read is that mtDNA is absolutely a reliable method of identification. It is, and has been, allowed as evidence in court proceedings. I can't see how this could be if it is as unreliable as some within this thread claim. From what I've read, Kosminski and Koslowski would only have the same mtDNA match if they were of the same maternal line, which would have nothing to do with whether or not they are Polish or Polish Jew.

But again, I'm no expert and perhaps Christopher could clarify this.

[The Good Michael]

Labs often use mtDNA testing to assign haplogroups. I believe that is as close as they can get when the testing is based on only a few markers. If there is a full genome sequence test, of course it is more reliable.

Mike

[christoper]

There is another point of contention and confusion and I think Chritopher would be much better qualified to try to answer than me.

But some of the numbers I've read within this thread are hard to believe. I'm not going back through hundreds of posts to try to find it now. But something to the tune that mtDNA would not narrow the specimen down to Kosminski, but rather include him within a group of, say, 40% of London's population that would also match. Is that where you're guessing that Koslowski may also match? I'd be interested in reading where they got that from, but it does NOT gel with what I've read. What I've read is that mtDNA is absolutely a reliable method of identification. It is, and has been, allowed as evidence in court proceedings. I can't see how this could be if it is as unreliable as some within this thread claim. From what I've read, Kosminski and Koslowski would only have the same mtDNA match if they were of the same maternal line, which would have nothing to do with whether or not they are Polish or Polish Jew.

But again, I'm no expert and perhaps Christopher could clarify this.

you are correct. If the population of London was 6 million at the time of the murders, I would guess that approximately ten people in London at that time would have matched. It might not be exact enough to convict in a modern court of law--but it narrows things down a lot.

of course--if the sample is valid, it doesn't prove AK killed her (much less anyone else). But if proven valid--he definitely will assume the position of most likely suspect for a lot of people...

[Poch]

Yep I said I was more cynical than you are a life time in television

However what you say is correct, The shroud of Turin has had a similar debate.

But if they match DNA from the Shawl to Eddows your going to have a tough time convincing the general public of that.

I very much doubt they will get permission to exhume Aron and do a direct DNA test.. and if I were cynical I would say thats what they would be betting on.

As far as I'm concerned the case for Kosminski doesn't need any DNA tests..but thats just my private opinion.

By the way I read your serial killer profile with Niel Milkins in 'Who was Jack the Stripper'… Probably one of the most interesting articles I've read in a long time…so many thanks..

Yours Jeff

They did apply to exhume the body but it was rejected on religious grounds. They wanted to do it graveside, just using a couple of teeth. The author said he could go down a route of using the law to allow them to exhume it and over rule the religious grounds but he didn't really want to do it that way. As they were pursuing the idea of exhuming the body, the scientist said that it wasn't neccesary as they had found enough DNA on the shawl anyway.

Every book/theory about jack the ripper requires the reader to take a leap of faith this book/story requires the reader to take so many leaps it just falls to pieces.

You've clearly not read the book, I think you should be more careful with your words whilst you're trumpeting 'fact' and 'truth'.

[Pontius2000]

you are correct. If the population of London was 6 million at the time of the murders, I would guess that approximately ten people in London at that time would have matched. It might not be exact enough to convict in a modern court of law--but it narrows things down a lot.

of course--if the sample is valid, it doesn't prove AK killed her (much less anyone else). But if proven valid--he definitely will assume the position of most likely suspect for a lot of people...

Ok, thanks for answering that. Kosminski probably had at least that many siblings, nieces, and nephews in London at the time. You're saying that the matches in London would have been relatives from his mother's line, or there could have realistically been other, non-Kosminski matches as well?

[Pontius2000]

They did apply to exhume the body but it was rejected on religious grounds. They wanted to do it graveside, just using a couple of teeth. The author said he could go down a route of using the law to allow them to exhume it and over rule the religious grounds but he didn't really want to do it that way. As they were pursuing the idea of exhuming the body, the scientist said that it wasn't neccesary as they had found enough DNA on the shawl anyway.



You've clearly not read the book, I think you should be more careful with your words whilst you're trumpeting 'fact' and 'truth'.

I can see the author having a problem with exhumation. However, this is still technically a murder case. I would love to see the authorities do their own tests and exhumations on those grounds. There's no statute of limitations on murder. If they can possibly solve it, they should try.

[lynn cates]

thorough

Hello Neil.

"However I like to be thorough."

Wish the author were.

Cheers.
LC

[christoper]

Ok, thanks for answering that. Kosminski probably had at least that many siblings, nieces, and nephews in London at the time. You're saying that the matches in London would have been relatives from his mother's line, or there could have realistically been other, non-Kosminski matches as well?

the closer the relative, the more likely the match.

The formula I used for that estimate is what is used today. it seems reasonable to adjust to account for larger families back then.

So it the average family was 3 times larger--a better estimate would be 30 matches. in any case, the DNA is not unique, but it greatly limits the pool of potentials.

[Scobie]

Is that where you're guessing that Koslowski may also match?

Yes, or just as good as Aaron. I guess I'm concurring with the theory that trying to make evidence fit a particular suspect is not ideal.

If it happens to fit Chapman as well, then ?

[Poch]

I can see the author having a problem with exhumation. However, this is still technically a murder case. I would love to see the authorities do their own tests and exhumations on those grounds. There's no statute of limitations on murder. If they can possibly solve it, they should try.

Me too, but I can symapthise with not wanting to be the guy that says 'screw your religious traditions, I'm doing it anyway' lol.

[mickreed]

Dark-haired

Originally Posted by Jeff Leahy:

Actually if you look at the pictures of Aaron Sister and cousin they don't look (And I don't wish to offend anyone here) typically jewish or what might be termed orthodox jewish but actually very polish.. quite fair


And the guy who left his semen on the shawl was darkhaired, according to Louhelainen. A straw in the wind, perhaps?

The best,
Fisherman

I've read (some years back) but only in secondary sources, that Kosminski was recorded as having fair hair when he was admitted to the workhouse and/or asylum. Given the fair hair of his relations, this seems quite likely.

Where does that leave our dark-haired suspect.

Cheers

Mick