Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Pontius2000]

That would be incorrect.

I'll give this much...the crime happened in London city, evidence of the crime was left at the very edge of Met territory, and ordered to be destroyed by the Met. It still goes without saying that the City and the Met crossed paths on numerous occasions on that night.

[Tom_Wescott]

I'll say it again...If the shawl was Eddowes' and Simpson took it, then Simpson was her killer. Plain and simple. However, the evidence strongly suggests Eddowes and that shawl never met each other. It was not hers. So all the DNA tests in the world can't squeeze Ripperological evidence from it. This was true when I wrote it back in 2013 and it's true now. Has nothing to do with Russell Edwards' book. I wish him all the best, but the strongest argument for considering Kozminski as the Ripper remains Rob House's book. I would say that in the long run this DNA nonsense will hamper the Koz cause instead of help it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GUT]

I'll say it again...If the shawl was Eddowes' and Simpson took it, then Simpson was her killer. Plain and simple. However, the evidence strongly suggests Eddowes and that shawl never met each other. It was not hers. So all the DNA tests in the world can't squeeze Ripperological evidence from it. This was true when I wrote it back in 2013 and it's true now. Has nothing to do with Russell Edwards' book. I wish him all the best, but the strongest argument for considering Kozminski as the Ripper remains Rob House's book. I would say that in the long run this DNA nonsense will hamper the Koz cause instead of help it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Now with that I totally agree.

[Tom_Wescott]

Now with that I totally agree.

As opposed to everything else I've ever posted? LOL.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jonathan H]

Swanson ...?

[Phil Carter]

I took this substandard one that anyone can copy for all I care.
[ATTACH]16208[/ATTACH]

Hello Edward, all,

1. Amos Simpson claimed he asked for the shawl whilst the body was "on the way to the mortuary".
2. Foster's drawing of the body in situ shows no 8ft long shawl on her person nor besides her.
(kind of hard to miss it really)

Ipso facto- the shawl wasnt at the scene of the crime-therefore cannot have been transported with body to mortuary. Therefore no souvenir to give to his wife.

That is the reality of this story. The story starts with an impossibility-and there is evidence to prove it.

Any claims built on this are therefore based upon non existant and unfounded provenence.

Apart from the obvious and dubious fact that every policeman present and 2 doctors- even Foster himself- would have to be complicit in the lie of not having seen an 8ft by 2ft piece of bloodied material in situ.


best regards

Phil

[GUT]

As opposed to everything else I've ever posted? LOL.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Yep

[Stewart P Evans]

Since when...?

...
And to answer my question that you skipped over....Charles Warren of the MET POLICE went into the CITY OF LONDON and ordered that the graffiti be erased. That obliterates your theory that cops don't just cross over into other jurisdiction during times of chaos. He said he did it to prevent violence against Jews. By your logic, the Jews in the city of London weren't really Warren's concern, right?
...

Since when has Goulston Street been in the City area? It was (and is) in the Metropolitan Police jurisdiction, hence Warren's attendance, and hence the writing and apron were found by a patrolling Met PC.

[Monty]

Knowledgeable on what, police from different jurisdictions crossing paths? Unless they were somehow there, they're no more knowledgeable than I on who did or didn't cross paths that night. Do you accept that Charles Warren gave the order for the graffiti to be erased? Was the graffiti in the city's jurisdiction or the met's jurisdiction?



The ones who were working likely were. And of course, that includes any additional forces who were working overtime because of the murder spree. So yes, if Amos Simpson was a cop in London in 1888, then there's a fairly good chance he was working that night.

Define 'crossed'. Beats on jurisdiction boundaries, between jurisdictions, ran parallel. City would be on the west side of Middlesex Street, Met on the east side, their paths would rarely cross over, but yes, they would meet up.

A constable only has the authorisation to cross into another jurisdiction if he feel a crime has taken place, or is about to take place, is in pursuit of a criminal in the aftermath of an immediate crime, or is requested to do so.

Simpsons rank, if valid for 1888, draws doubt on him being on a beat near Mitre Square.

The suggestion he responded to a whisle call is also doubtful. The City police carried no whistles, and it was nightwatchman Morris who raised the hue and cry with his whistle, which drew the attention of Constable Harvey, who inturn, called Constable Holland. No other Constable was noted by any of these men.

There were no other whistle calls, nor should there be, as the use of whistles was strictly laid down and monitored, with reports into their use being compiled post event. The scene was secure, runners sent, the City police has the area in control.

Back to rank, as acting Sergeant, Simpson would have been the most senior rank at the scene prior to the arrival of Insp Collard. He would have managed the scene, and given out orders, and conducted the hand over to Collard. He then would have completed a report which would have been handed over to the City police, and subsequently used in M'Williams summary report...it is not.

If Simpson arrived after Collard, he would have been negligent in his duty if he stayed. Because,as acting Sergeant, his duty was to maintain his section and ensure that no murders occured on his patch, not to galavant to Golden Lane, not his jurisdiction, not his reponsibility.

Finally, constables who have been called to assist, would return to there beat duties once there assistance is no longer required. There would be no need for Simpson to linger in Mitre Square until the removal of Eddowes, as the City police reserves would have flooded in to secure the scene for the detective department, and then aid in the bodies removal.

Whilst none of the above disproves Simpsons presence in Mitre Square, it certainly raises serious doubt on the validity of the claim, in many ways.

And for the record, Warren was acting in his jurisdiction, The Met area. He had no authority in the City.

Monty

[Monty]

Since when has Goulston Street been in the City area? It was (and is) in the Metropolitan Police jurisdiction, hence Warren's attendance, and hence the writing and apron were found by a patrolling Met PC.

Apologies Stewart,

Crossed posts.

It seems some need to get back to basics.

Monty

[Henry Flower]

I'm going to finally read Rob House's Kosminski book. I feel a lot happier putting money in his pocket than in Mr Edwards'.

Granted, that means I'll have to make-do with reading solid and extensive research rather than learning all about the author's marriages and career and noble quest, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

So Mr Edwards, if you're reading this - which I doubt, thank you for inspiring me to buy and read a real Kosminski book, even if it's not your own.

[GUT]

Define 'crossed'. Beats on jurisdiction boundaries, between jurisdictions, ran parallel. City would be on the west side of Middlesex Street, Met on the east side, their paths would rarely cross over, but yes, they would meet up.

A constable only has the authorisation to cross into another jurisdiction if he feel a crime has taken place, or is about to take place, is in pursuit of a criminal in the aftermath of an immediate crime, or is requested to do so.

Simpsons rank, if valid for 1888, draws doubt on him being on a beat near Mitre Square.

The suggestion he responded to a whisle call is also doubtful. The City police carried no whistles, and it was nightwatchman Morris who raised the hue and cry with his whistle, which drew the attention of Constable Harvey, who inturn, called Constable Holland. No other Constable was noted by any of these men.

There were no other whistle calls, nor should there be, as the use of whistles was strictly laid down and monitored, with reports into their use being compiled post event. The scene was secure, runners sent, the City police has the area in control.

Back to rank, as acting Sergeant, Simpson would have been the most senior rank at the scene prior to the arrival of Insp Collard. He would have managed the scene, and given out orders, and conducted the hand over to Collard. He then would have completed a report which would have been handed over to the City police, and subsequently used in M'Williams summary report...it is not.

If Simpson arrived after Collard, he would have been negligent in his duty if he stayed. Because,as acting Sergeant, his duty was to maintain his section and ensure that no murders occured on his patch, not to galavant to Golden Lane, not his jurisdiction, not his reponsibility.

Finally, constables who have been called to assist, would return to there beat duties once there assistance is no longer required. There would be no need for Simpson to linger in Mitre Square until the removal of Eddowes, as the City police reserves would have flooded in to secure the scene for the detective department, and then aid in the bodies removal.

Whilst none of the above disproves Simpsons presence in Mitre Square, it certainly raises serious doubt on the validity of the claim, in many ways.

And for the record, Warren was acting in his jurisdiction, The Met area. He had no authority in the City.

Monty

Thank you Monty, better explanation I could never have hoped to make.

[Henry Flower]

Define 'crossed'. Beats on jurisdiction boundaries, between jurisdictions, ran parallel. City would be on the west side of Middlesex Street, Met on the east side, their paths would rarely cross over, but yes, they would meet up.

A constable only has the authorisation to cross into another jurisdiction if he feel a crime has taken place, or is about to take place, is in pursuit of a criminal in the aftermath of an immediate crime, or is requested to do so.

Simpsons rank, if valid for 1888, draws doubt on him being on a beat near Mitre Square.

The suggestion he responded to a whisle call is also doubtful. The City police carried no whistles, and it was nightwatchman Morris who raised the hue and cry with his whistle, which drew the attention of Constable Harvey, who inturn, called Constable Holland. No other Constable was noted by any of these men.

There were no other whistle calls, nor should there be, as the use of whistles was strictly laid down and monitored, with reports into their use being compiled post event. The scene was secure, runners sent, the City police has the area in control.

Back to rank, as acting Sergeant, Simpson would have been the most senior rank at the scene prior to the arrival of Insp Collard. He would have managed the scene, and given out orders, and conducted the hand over to Collard. He then would have completed a report which would have been handed over to the City police, and subsequently used in M'Williams summary report...it is not.

If Simpson arrived after Collard, he would have been negligent in his duty if he stayed. Because,as acting Sergeant, his duty was to maintain his section and ensure that no murders occured on his patch, not to galavant to Golden Lane, not his jurisdiction, not his reponsibility.

Finally, constables who have been called to assist, would return to there beat duties once there assistance is no longer required. There would be no need for Simpson to linger in Mitre Square until the removal of Eddowes, as the City police reserves would have flooded in to secure the scene for the detective department, and then aid in the bodies removal.

Whilst none of the above disproves Simpsons presence in Mitre Square, it certainly raises serious doubt on the validity of the claim, in many ways.

And for the record, Warren was acting in his jurisdiction, The Met area. He had no authority in the City.

Monty

Thank you Monty, that was comprehensive and interesting. And for the record, speaking historically rather than legally, I'd say that it does effectively disprove Simpson's presence in Mitre Square.

For me it's actually simple:

Does the historical record allow us to place Simpson in or near Mitre Square? No. All available evidence points to his not having been there. Only an unverifiable 'family tradition' suggests otherwise.

Does the historical record allow us to suggest that there was an 8ft x 2ft silk shawl found at the scene? No. All available evidence points to its not having been there. Only an unverifiable 'family tradition' suggests otherwise.

Too many of us are starting with this family tradition and then pulling the historical record this way and that to see if it's at all possible to make it accommodate the 'tradition'. Why? Because it's much more exciting if the shawl is a real Ripper murder relic than if it's merely an Edwardian table runner with some unknown red-herring-soup stains on it.

We all know that, but so many of us still make this error, myself included. It's perfectly understandable that Mr Edwards should make such an error - he has possibly spent a great deal of money on buying and analysing an insignificant Edwardian table runner, and hopes to make his money back in book sales. We don't have any such excuse.

Sure, IF he was on top-secret undocumented secret special duties, then it's physically possible that Simpson was near Mitre Square. It's equally possible that he was joined on special duties that night by Queen Victoria, disguised as a fishmonger, smoking a woodbine and singing snatches of popular music-hall ballads.

[Stewart P Evans]

See above

Knowledgeable on what, police from different jurisdictions crossing paths? Unless they were somehow there, they're no more knowledgeable than I on who did or didn't cross paths that night. Do you accept that Charles Warren gave the order for the graffiti to be erased? Was the graffiti in the city's jurisdiction or the met's jurisdiction?
...

Pompous2000 - See above posts that show that you are, apparently, less knowledgeable than us.

[Trevor Marriott]

Yes, he was based in N division. At the time of the murder he was on 'special duties', which meant there is a likelihood he would have been elsewhere. The books version goes that he was there either to help with manpower needs during the ripper murders, or because of Fenian terrorists if I remember correctly.

He must have been almost on Mitre Square because city officers Dc Halse, Outram and Marriott were just down the road.