Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Penny_Dredfull]

Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

I have to interrupt this episode of CSI Whitechapel to point out that mitochondrial DNA is derived from bone, teeth, maybe hair- but NOT from blood, semen or other bodily fluids.
THEN, there is the considerable problem of contamination and degrading of the supposed material over time. The samples were hardly maintained, collected and treated in a sterile environment through the years. You would have a hard time getting a conviction based on "THaT" evidence in court.
But that's only the tip of the iceberg as concerns the dubious claims made for this hinky shawl of questionable provenance.
These supposed Ripper related objects periodically surface accompanied by dramatic claims that never hold water in the cold light of day after the media flurry of attention dies down. I can only think that the originator of this cause celebre has thought to himself "Hmmm, how can I go one better than the other claimants before me? I know! Forensic evidence- that's the thing these days that everyone goes in for! Forensic DNA evidence- that's the magic phrase!"
Unfortunately, what is here presented to us as scientific, incontrovertible evidence bears as much relation to the truth as does an episode of CSI Miami to a real-life forensic investigation.

[Jeff Leahy]

The fog swilled round during eddowes murder......and the only clue eddowes shawl was taken from the scene and kept by a policeman.......people who know nothing about this case(and that includes Mr Edwards)are going to watch these reports and believe it and buy the book .

Accept there was no fog on the night of her murder..just damp drizzle.

[Jeff Leahy]

Observer,

Jeff,
Aaron didnt live in Dutfields Yard, His brother Woolf, family (and possibly Aaron) were living next door to what was to become IWMC at number 38, when Woolfs daughter Rebecca was born in 1882. Chris Phillips found this on Rebeccas birth certificate (on our piece in RIP128)
At the time of Strides murder Woolf and family were living in Providence street. The house was in the next street east of Berner street opposite an alleyway that ran through to the lower part of Berner Street.

Sorry dont mean to nit-pick its just it might affect others research.

Pat..............

Yes I'm familiar with the detail..

The point I was making is that Aaron could have been vary familiar with the yard even thought of it as personal space. The argument witnessed by Schwartz appearing to be.. well quite personal

Just thought the geography an interesting development

Yours Jeff

[Penny_Dredfull]

Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

And, as I think someone pointed out before, mitochondrial DNA is NOT a unique identifier anyway... even IF you manged to obtain a good enough sample from a contaminated source.

[Henry Flower]

So everyone agrees: we're back to square one - ie - Vincent did it.

[Observer]

Observer,
It seems that the shawl was dated 1886 by Arabella Vincenti, a fine art picture framer, possibly the one in Colchester. (On the back of the framed piece shown on The Australian Suspect at 29.30)
I wonder how authentic this dating was? Anybody know?

Thanks for that Paddy. So the section in the frame has been dated by a fine arts picture framer to 1886. There are factory samples books in existence. Without a sample book it's down to experience. The 1902-04 estimate is 14-16 years after the event. Did styles change drastically between those time frames?

Regards

Observer

[Phil Carter]

Eddowes DNA

I have just read, with alarm, that this shawl was handled in 2007 at the Wolverhampton conference by descendants of Kate Eddowes.

I have written to the gentleman concerned asking permission to quote his name and comments in full.


Phil

[Prosector]

Sorry, much as I'd like to agree with you, mitochondrial DNA is found in all cells that contain mitochondria ie most cells in the body. However it is not found in red blood cells (nor is nuclear DNA). It tends to be preserved better in bones teeth and hair. That is why I said yesterday that it is highly unlikely to survive for 126 years in 'cells' or bodily fluids found on an old piece of cloth, especially if had been washed in the interim.
Prosector

[Prosector]

Sorry Penny, much as I'd like to agree with you mtDNA is found in all cells that contain mitochondria (ie most cells in the body). It is not found in red blood cells however (nor is nuclear DNA). It may survive longer in bones teeth and hair because they are relatively indestructable which is why I said yesterday that it is highly unlikely for mtDNA to survive intact for 126 years on an old piece of cloth, especially if it had been washed in the interim.
Prosector

[Paddy]

Observer

From what I have read so far it was the pattern (printed michaelmas Daisys) that was dated at the V&A. Dont quote me on that though, hopefully if I am wrong someone will correct me.
Not actually sure what fabric Catherine Eddowes skirt was but that was same pattern.

Pat.......................

[MrBarnett]

Phil,

Do you know if this was before or after Russell Edwards became the owner?

MrB

[Henry Flower]

Phil.

Wow.

No wonder they found a 100% match!

Nice work.

[Phil Carter]

Phil,

Was this before or after Russell Edwards became the owner?

MrB

Alarmingly Mr.B....whilst


best regards


Phil

[Phil Carter]

Phil.

Wow.

No wonder they found a 100% match!

Nice work.

It was witnessed by this gentleman and others at the Wolverhampton 2007 JTR Conference. I am just waiting for confirmation to quote this gentleman, known to some here, to quote his name and comments in full.

Is that what we call the smoking gun?



Phil

[eddie1]

Alarmingly Mr.B....whilst


best regards


Phil

Wow that explains the DNA profile then. The question is was this a innocent mistake or a genuine attempt to fake results. The plot thickens