Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[GUT]

G'day Mick

So, if Jari is correct that the DNA showed dark hair and eyes, then we need to know what each of the gene pairs showed. If both were dark, then it could be Aaron, but the chances are much reduced. If one is dark and one is fair/blue, then the chances of it being Kosminski are raised but, of course not confirmed.

That's right. The odds on both genes being dark are 1:4 but odds of him being dark are 3:4, that's if both parents were D/L.

IE possible combinations are D/L D/D L/D L/L where D=Dark and L=Light [if we only had two genes] and first is from dad and second is from mum.

If one par5ent was D/D and one D/L then it becomes

D/D D/L D/D and D/L so 50:50.

[S.Brett]

I have no idea…

But I think brown is dominant and blue is recessive; brown x blue = brown?

[mickreed]

G'day Mick




That's right. The odds on both genes being dark are 1:4 but odds of him being dark are 3:4, that's if both parents were D/L.

IE possible combinations are D/L D/D L/D L/L where D=Dark and L=Light [if we only had two genes] and first is from dad and second is from mum.

If one par5ent was D/D and one D/L then it becomes

D/D D/L D/D and D/L so 50:50.

Thanks, mate.

[mickreed]

I have no idea…

But I think brown is dominant and blue is recessive; brown x blue = brown?

Correct

[Jeff Leahy]

He may have also had concurrent Bi Polar, the Manic episodes can also include Hypersexuality in up to 80% of bipolar sufferers
, with frequent or infrequent episodes of varying levels and frequency.

Hi Wolfei1

Yes bi-polar is something that I have a little personal experience of, and personal knowledge.

I've understood that … and please note I'm dyslexic so will try a phonetic: STAT-ER-RYE-SIS.. compulsive masturbating is more common with bi-polar or manic depression.

And of course its possible Aaron experienced more than one condition we don't know for sure.

Dr Lars Davidson made his diagnosis based on Aaron's age, descent and later 'BURN OUT' more typical of Schizophrenia.

Al that can really be said is that there is nothing in Aaron Kosminski's know symptoms that RULE HIM OUT being JtR or of being relatively harmless once removed fro the environment that created the catalyst, if he were the killer.

The fact remains that still very little is known about these extreme conditions and given the recent development of more sophisticated equipment something we will continue to discover about over the near future

Yours Jeff

[mickreed]

What we have been told - from information from a granddaughter of Matilda - is that "Matilda and Morris, her grandparents, and all their children were small and all had blue eyes. However we do not know whether all Matilda's brothers and sisters had blue eyes or not."

Morris was a first cousin of Matilda (Morris's father and Matilda's mother were Lubnowski siblings). For what it's worth, David Lubin was the son of another Lubnowski sibling, and his biographer, Olivia Agresti, mentions his "clear blue eyes":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Lubin

There are a lot of blue eye genes in that family. Proves nothing re Aaron, but does raise questions.

Christer, you're in touch with Jari. Is he willing and/or able to give any insight into this that could be made public?

[mickreed]

You´re welcome.



brown/brown?

Please look here:

Hi,

We are told by Jari Louhelainen that he has genomic DNA that shows that the man, purported by Edwards to be Kosminski, had dark hair, and (I'm pretty sure he said) brown eyes.

Hence the significance of the blue eyes that ran in the family.

[S.Brett]

Hi,

We are told by Jari Louhelainen that he has genomic DNA that shows that the man, purported by Edwards to be Kosminski, had dark hair, and (I'm pretty sure he said) brown eyes.

Hence the significance of the blue eyes that ran in the family.

Okay, thanks...

My father had blue (grey-blue) eyes
My mother-in-law had blue (grey-blue) eyes
My mother had brown (green-brown) eyes
My father-in-law had brown (green-brown) eyes
My ex-wife has green eyes
I have brown (green-brown) eyes
Our son has blue eyes (grey-blue) – from grandma and grandpa?

Is that possible? (I deeply hope...)

[Mabuse]

the known evidence suggests Aaron Kosminski masturbated. The level of that masturbation and victorian opinion might be raised and debated. But several sources mention that he masturbated. Thats what we have.

These are claims. Not evidence.

We have Macnaghten and the red ink addition to the admission document. That's about it. Since the Victorians genuinely thought masturbation was linked to mental illness, this doesn't actually prove Kosminski was a compulsive masturbator. They may have assumed he was "self abusing" because he was insane.

Dr Lars Davidson used the term Hebophrenic because of Aarons age, on set and descent. The old terminolgies were Catatonic (Usual associated with early on set), Hebophrenic (Typically starting late teens early twenties and Paraniod (Later on-set)

I've never heard onset periodicity used as criteria for these terms, rather number of symptoms falling under subtypes, but I bow to Dr Davidsson's expertise. However I find his hypothesis very weird. Hebephrenic is (or rather was) disorganised. Davidsson believed the Ripper was disorganised and was not concerned with being caught. I cannot understand why anyone would believe that, given how many police and private citizens were out hunting for the murderer at the time, and that he evaded them. JtR appears to deliberately arrange his victims in a tableau, he's deliberately trying to horrify and offend, he's fleeing the site when he's nearly caught ... but you don't accept that Stride was our man's victim.

Those old subtype classifications are now obsolete, in any case.

Aarons condition is actually fairly typical on set, 22 years of age.

If that reportage is accurate. We don't know the progress of his illness or if his family and friends recognised what was going on. He may have become ill much earlier. The admission form annotations confuse matters greatly as to what was perceived as the first major episode.

There is no evidence for Kosminski being homicidal or having a hatred of women. His threatening his sister and throwing a chair are quite in line with schizophrenia and don't necessarily indicate homicidal tendencies. When people with schizophrenia are violent it is most often towards people in their family.

Was Aaron picked up early in the investigation. I believe so.

Believe so? Have we got any police documentation with his name on it? Where is he listed as a suspect in 1888?

I don't know what to make of the bloody shirt.

Just a thought...

I've always felt there was something premeditated and calculating about the JtR murders, which in my mind doesn't fit with AK.

Unless of course he was suffering from GPI and not schizophrenia, which might explain the deterioration of his mind, rendering him incapable of committing any further crimes once the disease had reached it's peak.

Amanda

Now, this is a real possibility. I am drawn to the elegance of this because it explains cessation of the crimes. As well as why he's attacking prostitutes, because it is from a prostitute he's caught syphilis. Presumably. Shades of D'Onston.

Very insightful. Finally, someone has read a logic text.

May your tribe increase.

Cheers.
LC

Cheers! I like logic, except on a Friday or Saturday night, when I am known to become quite illogical, usually at a pub.

[mickreed]

Okay, thanks...

My father had blue (grey-blue) eyes
My mother-in-law had blue (grey-blue) eyes
My mother had brown (green-brown) eyes
My father-in-law had brown (green-brown) eyes
My ex-wife has green eyes
I have brown (green-brown) eyes
Our son has blue eyes (grey-blue) – from grandma and grandpa?

Is that possible? (I deeply hope...)

Entirely possible, although you might need GUT to give you the odds.

Now green eyes. I'm not sure how they fit in vis-à-vis dominance and recession.

[GUT]

Okay, thanks...

My father had blue (grey-blue) eyes
My mother-in-law had blue (grey-blue) eyes
My mother had brown (green-brown) eyes
My father-in-law had brown (green-brown) eyes
My ex-wife has green eyes
I have brown (green-brown) eyes
Our son has blue eyes (grey-blue) – from grandma and grandpa?

Is that possible? (I deeply hope...)

Short answer yes. Blue is generally recessive as is green. Is it your mother in law with grey blue or mother.

Eye colour is actually controlled by more than one pair of genes so what I have been putting earlier is very much a simplification.

but in simple terms

My father had blue (grey-blue) eyes Blue/Blue
My mother-in-law had blue (grey-blue) eyes Blue/Green
My mother had brown (green-brown) eyes Brown/ Green
My father-in-law had brown (green-brown) eyes Brown/Green
My ex-wife has green eyes Green[from m-i-l]/Green [from f-i-l]
I have brown (green-brown) eyes Brown [from mother]/Blue [from father]

Son Blue[you]/Green [ex] Blue generally dominant over green.

[mickreed]

The historian in me must protest:

These are claims. Not evidence.

These are evidence, but only of claims.

Believe so? Have we got any police documentation with his name on it? Where is he listed as a suspect in 1888?

If anyone can tell us that, then that would be good. And still it would prove nothing.

As well as why he's attacking prostitutes, because it is from a prostitute he's caught syphilis.

Shades of Leonard Matters and Dr Stanley

Keep up the good work, Mabuse. Friday night tomorrow. The pub awaits.

[Robert]

The food at Leavesden - at least in the 1930s - was, apparently, crap :

http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/nostalgia/memories/10345965.print/

[mickreed]

Now, this is a real possibility. I am drawn to the elegance of this because it explains cessation of the crimes. As well as why he's attacking prostitutes, because it is from a prostitute he's caught syphilis. Presumably. Shades of D'Onston.

Wouldn't Kosminski have been rather young to exhibit GPI?

[Andy Conway]

Originally Posted by Andy Conway
... But what I don't really get at all is the notion that the Ripper's semen could have been placed on a garment, any garment, in Mitre Square.

There just isn't time.

Originally Posted by Mabuse
There wasn't time. Add to that the idea that the Whitechapel murderer had any sexual release during the crimes is unsupported by evidence.

Exactly. He was a ripper, not a masturbator.

Several of the autopsy reports (including the one on Catherine Eddowes) state that there was ‘no evidence of connexion’ (a Victorian euphemism for ‘sex’). Anil Aggrawal, in her book Necrophilia: Forensic and Medico-legal Aspects, classes Jack the Ripper as a Typical Class IXa Necrophile who murdered and mutilated his victims but did not have sex with them. No semen was ever found at any of the crime scenes. It seems that for Jack the Ripper, the mutilation was the sex act.

Secondly, with the murder of Catherine Eddowes, there just isn’t enough time for masturbation to occur (putting aside the change in story that the shawl now belongs to Kosminski, not Catherine).

If we accept that he walks Catherine into Mitre Square after the Lawende sighting at 1:34am, and he ceases his work and thinks about making his escape at.1:40am when PC Harvey walks into Church Passage, then he has six minutes in which to:

• get her into the square and across to the dark south-west corner
• cut her throat (after strangling her?),
• cut her dress open,
• cut her abdomen open, and make the following wounds:
• liver stabbed as if by the point of a sharp instrument,
• another incision into the liver of about two and a half inches,
• below this the left lobe of the liver was slit through by a vertical cut,
• a stab of about an inch on the left groin,
• below this a cut of three inches going through all tissues making a wound of the peritoneum,
• a cut extending from the anterior spine of the ilium obliquely down the inner side of the left thigh,
• a flap of skin formed by the right thigh, attaching the right labium, and extending up to the spine of the ilium. The muscles on the right side inserted into the frontal ligaments were cut through,
• a cut from the upper part of the slit on the under surface of the liver to the left side,
• another cut at right angles to this, which were about an inch and a half deep and two and a half inches long,
• pancreas cut, but not through,
• peritoneal lining was cut through on the left side,
• left kidney carefully taken out and removed, (then wrapped and/or pocketed) [my emphasis]
• left renal artery cut through,
• lining membrane over the uterus cut through,
• womb cut through horizontally, leaving a stump of three quarters of an inch.
• rest of the womb taken away with some of the ligaments (then wrapped and/or pocketed),
• a tongue-like cut through the anterior wall of the abdominal aorta.
• place the intestines over her right shoulder,
• place more intestines between the left arm and the body (which ‘seemed to be placed there by design’),

He then moved to the face and made:

• a cut about a quarter of an inch through the lower left eyelid,
• right eyelid cut through to about half an inch,
• a deep cut over the bridge of the nose, extending from the left border of the nasal bone down near the angle of the jaw on the right side of the cheek,
• tip of the nose detached by an oblique cut from the bottom of the nasal bone to where the wings of the nose join on to the face,
• half an inch from the top of the nose another oblique cut,
• a cut on the right angle of the mouth as if the cut of a point of a knife,
• triangular cut to left cheek
• triangular cut to right cheek
• on the left cheek two abrasions of the epithelium under the left ear,
• cut a piece of her ear off (it dropped from her clothing at the mortuary),

Then he stops mutilating and:

• cuts away her pockets, examines the contents, discarding the buttons and the thimble, etc, and pockets whatever trophy he wants
• cuts off a piece of her apron with which he wipes his hands (dumping it later in Goulston Street),
• vacates the square, either through Church Passage (now called St. James Passage) or St. James Passage (now called Mitre Passage)

Even allowing for some of the cuts detailed above to have been applied with the same stroke, this is a phenomenal amount of butchery to perform within a 6-minute period.

And even if the Lawende sighting is wrong and he ignores PC Harvey approaching, so we allow him a full 12 minutes between PC Watkins' departure and return, there's still not enough time to do all of that and masturbate to conclusion, I would think.