Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Henry Flower]

Mick,

Do you feel its at least a major coincidence that the two genetic fragments analysed on the shawl come from a rare mutation and a rare haplogroup, that relate to Eddowes and Kosminski respectively? For example, Eddowes shares the mutation and Kosminski the haplogroup. I'm not saying this is a 1.2 billion to one coincidence, as has been suggested, but its surely pretty unlikely.

And regarding coincidences, its not as if Eddowes and Kosminski are linked only by the genetic evidence. i believe they lived only 200 yards from each other and, of course, a witness claimed to have seen them together just before Eddowes body was found.

As I said earlier, i'm pretty skeptical usually but there's only so much coincidence that I can take before becoming suspicious!

John G - I would imagine those highly improbable matches to a rare mutation and a rare haplogroup were magically produced when the shawl was placed on a floor and near a plant pot, respectively.

If only that bumbling fool Dr Louhelainen had been informed about the plant pot he could have done things completely differently and done special plant-pot control tests.

[Stewart P Evans]

Constable

Hi Robert,
The term 'constable' actually covered all ranks, from Assistant Commissioner down to the lowest rank. Commissioners were actually Justices of the Peace until the 1980s, when they were altered to constables also.
However, that said, I have seen censuses with official ranks noted, this mix, to me, means what is written in a census should not be taken as gospel.
Monty

I abandoned the boards before the census entry was shown.

Indeed, all police officers of whatever rank are still constables in law. You have the rank Chief Constable which exemplifies this. When talking of rank structure 'police constable' is the lowest rank.

Whoever filled out the census return was probably told by Simpson that he was an acting sergeant in the Metropolitan Police Force and felt that constable was sufficient for description of occupation.

[Henry Flower]

What he should have been told was:

'I've heard that this might have been at a crime scene in 1888, I have no idea whether that is true or not, and BTW, the item has been kicked around for a hundred plus years, in and out of various venues, stared at by all and sundry, handled by an unknown number of all and sundry, used as a pot plant base, and that's only what I know for sure.'

What might he have said then?

Er, perhaps something like - "OK, so there may well be considerable surface contamination, but it may be possible to screen that out, and I will use techniques that, I believe, will allow us to dissolve and draw out genetic material embedded deeper in the core of the fabric than these surface contaminants. And if an unlikely match is found to a rare genetic mutation present in a descendant of the alleged victim, that won't be easily explained away by the shawl having once touched a plant pot."

For example.

[Chris]

Dr Louhelainen dismissed issues of Edwards being photographed handling the shawl without gloves due to the fact the photographs were taken after the tests. This ignores the prior handling the shawl received in over a decade being passed around, laid on the floor of the Crime Museum, having a pot plant propped on it, held up in a pub (where there are liquids everywhere) for a photo, put up for auction, wrapped up in cardboard and sent in the post, being in a box with other bits of unspecified clothing for over 70 years ... I guarantee he does not know about all of that.

I'm sure he knows most of it. The book suggests that DNA from casual handling wouldn't remain on silk for more than 12 months (it says that for something like wool the period would be longer). Control samples were taken from people who had handled it during that period (though it's not clear that they were taken from all of them).

[Chris]

However, if someone has it and their rellies are all around, it might be quite common in the local area. According to Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation:

Exact Matches: An exact match indicates another participant has the same mtDNA values that you entered. An exact match may mean that you share a common maternal ancestor in genealogical time (the last 500 years).

So Karen Miller's apparent exact match with the shawl DNA mean that the mutation may have occurred any time since the 15th century - and indeed possibly earlier, since these are only ever estimates, and indeed it could have occurred much later.

Of course I take your point that in general there may be related mtDNA in the surrounding area, though since Eddowes was born in Wolverhampton it's probably less of a problem in this case.

As you've said, we're going round in circles, and people are still asking the same questions over and over again. It's difficult to know how to respond. At the moment I'm am just trying to give concise answers about what the book says. Obviously there are also a hundred and one discussions to be had about whether the arguments in the book are valid. Perhaps it would be better to split this thread into more specific threads to deal with specific aspects, so that it would be more feasible for people to read the previous discussions. But I'm not sure it would work.

[lynn cates]

a lot of Boole

Hello Wolfie. Thanks.

I was cursed with a Boolean mind. You know; on/off; left/right; up/down; forward/reverse and so on. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

otiose questions

Hello Mick.

"This is unsurprising and doesn't matter, but how would anyone know whether it was my DNA on a cloth or my cousin's? They would need additional data."

And that is why I tire of hearing, "Oooh! Kosminski's semen is on the shawl." and, "How did Kate's blood get there?"

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

moot

Hello MB.

"IF it is ever proven conclusively that AK's semen is indeed present on the garmen , and IF it is ever proven conclusively to have Kate's blood upon it, and IF it can ever be connected to her murder in Mitre Sq, then we can talk about why it would be impossible for him to knock one off within the time frame we know he was limited to."

Right. But until then, it all seems moot.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

immigration

Hello Mick.

"I forgot that Kate was from Wolverhampton, and so it seems was her mother."

On the other hand, people immigrated freely to London from the provinces.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

address

Hello John.

"I believe they lived only 200 yards from each other. . ."

Kate's last purported address was Mile End Casual Ward.

". . . and, of course, a witness claimed to have seen them together just before Eddowes body was found."

Which witness was this?

Cheers.
LC

[wolfie1]

Hello MB.

"IF it is ever proven conclusively that AK's semen is indeed present on the garmen , and IF it is ever proven conclusively to have Kate's blood upon it, and IF it can ever be connected to her murder in Mitre Sq, then we can talk about why it would be impossible for him to knock one off within the time frame we know he was limited to."

Right. But until then, it all seems moot.

Cheers.
LC

I am not a bloke, but is it possible he could do his 'self harm' deed without hands on involvement so to speak. Whilst he is in the 'moments' of killing, is that what he needs to satisfy himself to the fullest. Purely physical contact with the victim.. Is there such a spectrum on the Sexual Deviant scale?

[John G]

Hello John.

"I believe they lived only 200 yards from each other. . ."

Kate's last purported address was Mile End Casual Ward.

". . . and, of course, a witness claimed to have seen them together just before Eddowes body was found."

Which witness was this?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Yes, I'm sorry my post wasn't very clear- i think I'm starting to get too carried away! I realize I'm probably stepping into dangerous water here but I was alluding, not very accurately, to the hypothesis proposed by Paul Begg and others that Kosminski was Anderson's and Swanson's suspect and that he was positively identified, allegedly, by either Schwaatrz or Lawende as a man seen in the company of either Stride or Eddowes, or someone who looked like or dressed like Eddowes, shortly before they were murdered. I suppose put like that it really doesn't amount to very much!

I guess I was trying to draw attention to the collective amount of circumstantial evidence, rumour and innuendo linking Kosminski to the murders which I suppose amounts to... not very much really! Thanks for the details concerning Eddowes residence in relation to Kosminski- i think I got my info about them living 200 yard apart from a dodgy website I'll try and avoid in future!

Cheers,

John

[John G]

John G - I would imagine those highly improbable matches to a rare mutation and a rare haplogroup were magically produced when the shawl was placed on a floor and near a plant pot, respectively.

If only that bumbling fool Dr Louhelainen had been informed about the plant pot he could have done things completely differently and done special plant-pot control tests.

Hi Henry,

By Jove I think you've cracked the mystery! Based upon this exciting new development I shall immediately downgrade Kosminski in my list of suspects and replace him with James Maybrick- now there's a really plausible suspect!

[John G]

G'day John.

My worry is that I'm not sure that we really know what the DNA info is. As I've repeatedly said, I can't get the book in Australia until 30 September, so I'm reliant on what others are saying.

Jari, the scientist seems to be much less definite in his statements than Edwards. I'd expect that. If the 314.1C mutation is definitive, then that is fairly unusual, although just how unusual in the particular place at that particular time needs research.

Now, the haplogroup T1a1 ascribed to the 'Kosminski' DNA is not particularly unusual. It IS unusual amongst Ashkenazi Jews, but not amongst the general population.

Witnesses? So far as I know (and I've been wrong before) nobody has ever said they saw Eddowes and Kosminski together. Lawnde and Levy saw a man and a woman. The woman fitted Eddowes description. The man wore a peaked cloth cap, looked a bit rough and shabby, and was about three inches taller than Kate.

Had someone said, 'I saw Aaron Kosminski with her just before the murder', surely he'd have been pulled in.

Hi,

Yes, i think I got a bit carried away on that post. The information about Kosminski's haplogroup I obtained from this website http://dna-explained.com/2014/09/08/jack-the-ripper/. Unless, I've completely misunderstood the author claims that only 7,200 out of an estimated 6 million Londoners living at the time would have shared this particular haplogroup- I suppose more unusual than rare.

Cheers,

John

[tji]

Hi

After spending the last few days looking through info on Mtdna I have found out 2 things.

1. I have new respect for scientists!

2. With what little information we have been given of the results, while being able to find out the very basic I think it is unlikely we can do more. There are always going to be more question's than answers.
There are so many different variables and mutations with mtdna that without the complete sequencing is going to be mind boggling. So without a complete sequence I don't think we can go much further.

One question I have, (and there is a good chance I have misunderstood) is the fact Edward's states the global private mutation is due to the finding of the rare gene, however I can only find information about GPM along these line's

global private mutation: mutation never observed in Phylotree, probably due to inconsistent alignments, phantom mutation's or point heteroplasmies (R, Y, K....).

also -

it can also be seen that one remaining polymorphisms is a ‘‘global private mutation;’’ this means that the polymorphism from the sample was never seen in Phylotree, hinting to the possibility of a genotyping error.


So while I am by no mean's questioning Dr Jari's competency (more Edward's way with words) it would be interesting to see if the mutation is present in any other family member.

Tracy