Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[GUT]

G'day Mick

There are so many vested interests in this debate. Loads of people with positions to uphold following previously-published works or livelihoods to maintain, even more with a private theory that is dear to them. Some of the belligerents (I use the term deliberately) don't seem to like one another and are contemptuous of each other. It does get a bit tiresome.

Personally I would love to see a solution, but I never expect to make a brass razoo out of the case.

I also accept that "some" of those who have and do make money would be happy to see a solution. But the bitterness is as you say "a bit tiresome."

[mickreed]

G'day Mick



Personally I would love to see a solution, but I never expect to make a brass razoo out of the case.

I also accept that "some" of those who have and do make money would be happy to see a solution. But the bitterness is as you say "a bit tiresome."

Yep! There're plenty of well-intentioned people out there. If I ever make as much as a brass razoo out of anything, I'll be doing well. Financial wizardry has never been my strong point.

[Chris]

A male serial killer walking around the East End in an 8ft. shawl.

Let that sink in, because that's the theory being endorsed by the Koz camp.

Tom, if you insist on continuing to post this stuff, please
(1) can you explain who you mean by "the Koz camp" and
(2) can you quote anyone who has said anything about Kozminski "walking around the East End in an 8ft. shawl".

[Monty]

According to Edwards (apparently):

In his book Edwards addresses this as being either Simpson being stationed in Whitechapel and we just have no surviving record of the secondment and he (along with other officers) answered the whistle calls and crossed over into City territory on the discovery of the body or, as he was told by Simpson’s descendants, he was on special duties in the City related to tracking down Fenians (Irish Republicans).

According to the Inquest:

Watkins: I did not sound an alarm. We do not carry whistles.

Admittedly, the night watchman blew his whistle.

There was only one whistle blown, that of Nightwatchman Morris.

Special Duties for Special Branch? I think not. They were a seperate entity, and did not second uniformed men. Simpson would have had to have been in plain clothes which, again, I cannot see in police orders...yet.

Monty

[Chris]

But if the shawl had been discarded away from the crime scene, how would the MET PC and/or Simpson have known that it was Eddowes's?

I do think that's a serious problem for anyone trying to think of an alternative scenario in which the shawl could have got from the murder scene to Simpson. The knowledge of a connection with Eddowes would have to be passed along as well.

[Chris]

1. If Kosmhnski was trying to conclude business on 29th Sept he was a day late there too- not just 8th November. Which really has me puzzled- why didnt he kill someone in the 24 hours BEFORE midnight, 29th September? Likewise the 24 hours before midnight 8th November? Am I wrong?

Evidently the idea is that he went looking for a victim on the evenings of 29 September and 8 November.

[Chris]

A serious author without an agenda would have waited until the DNA tests proved or disproved Kosminski as the sperm depositor or the results were still inconclusive after all avenues for investigation were exhausted, as any of those results would be important.

Of course that would be the case in an ideal world. But we know that Russell Edwards had a strict publisher's deadline to meet. Funnily enough, Martin Fido came up against the same problem when he originally identified Aaron Kozminski.

[Chris]

In fairness to Mr. Edwards, I went back and looked at the book again; maybe I'm guilty of reading between the lines regarding the Michaelmas connection/deliberate clue. He doesn't come right out and write that Kosminski left this as a deliberate clue (at least not that I can find in the book) but I do think this is what he's suggesting.

Yes, it is. He says (chapter 9, at location 2177 in the Kindle version):
Perhaps he had left the shawl at the scene of the crime as an obscure clue to the police as to when he would strike again.

What hadn't come across to me in the book was the emphasis on the symbolism of debts being paid at Michaelmas. I'm not sure whether he was suggesting that (but he probably should have).

[wolfie1]

Yes, it is. He says (chapter 9, at location 2177 in the Kindle version):
Perhaps he had left the shawl at the scene of the crime as an obscure clue to the police as to when he would strike again.

What hadn't come across to me in the book was the emphasis on the symbolism of debts being paid at Michaelmas. I'm not sure whether he was suggesting that (but he probably should have).

Have not read the book yet, but have also considered that the killer , if he was a Jew, was he striking out at Christians,due to the religious observance of Michaelmas on the Christian calendar.

[mickreed]

Yes, it is. He says (chapter 9, at location 2177 in the Kindle version):

What hadn't come across to me in the book was the emphasis on the symbolism of debts being paid at Michaelmas. I'm not sure whether he was suggesting that (but he probably should have).

And, as I said in an earlier post, I'm far from certain that a Jew from Eastern Europe would have much knowledge about the symbolism of debts being paid on Michaelmas Day, the (western) Christian festival of Michaelmas. The Eastern Orthodox Churches did not observe Michaelmas. Where it was observed, presumably in Catholic Poland, I don't know whether it had the old contractual significance that it held in England. It surely played no role with the Jewish faith.

There's not doubt that for centuries:

[The] four Quarter days became the times of the year when rents and tithes were due and servants were hired or paid, and many agreements specified livestock such as goose as payment.

Geese also became linked with Michaelmas as they were fat at this time of year from grazing the harvest stubble and most livestock was culled before the winter.

Consequently, feasting on goose at Michaelmas was believed to bring luck for the following year. Hence the rhyme: ‘He who eats goose on Michaelmas day; Shan’t money lack or debts pay’.

I'm not even sure it would have carried much weight with a born-and-bred Londoner of a basic Christian faith by the1880s. Possibly someone of rural background might be more influenced by it, as in some parts of the country where living-in farm service still survived, or where what was known, in Buckinghamshire at least, as 'gnawing it out' was still practiced, then Michaelmas would be a significant date, even for some, 'Old Michaelmas Day', 11 October, which survived as the significant contractual day well into the 19th century, despite the calendar change of 1752.

But it's all a bit pie in the sky to put such significance into the mindset of a young Jewish immigrant from Poland/Russia.

[Chris]

In the book, Edwards theorizes that Kosminski didn't wear the shawl, but left it as a deliberate clue. He believes this particular pattern of Michaelmas daisies wasn't an English design, but rather Russian. According to him the symbolism is supposedly representing the celebration of the Feast day of St Michael in England (Sept 29) as well as in Russia (Nov 8). He also writes that in medieval times, and up to the end of the 19th century, Michaelmas was a time for business to be concluded.

I have to say that the flowers on the "shawl" don't look anything like Michaelmas daisies to me. I've copied below an enlarged version of Stewart Evans's photo, a William Morris Michaelmas daisy pattern and some photos of real Michaelmas daisies from the Internet.







I suspect the description of the flowers on the "shawl" as Michaelmas daisies stemmed from a desire to identify it with the "chintz dress" of the press reports. I should add that this description didn't originate with Russell Edwards, but predated his purchase of the "shawl".

[wolfie1]

I have to say that the flowers on the "shawl" don't look anything like Michaelmas daisies to me. I've copied below an enlarged version of Stewart Evans's photo, a William Morris Michaelmas daisy pattern and some photos of real Michaelmas daisies from the Internet.

[ATTACH]16244[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]16245[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]16243[/ATTACH]

I suspect the description of the flowers on the "shawl" as Michaelmas daisies stems from a desire to identify it with the "chintz dress" of the press reports. I should add that this description didn't originate with Russell Edwards, but predated his purchase of the "shawl".

The outline appears to be more of a Pansy shape.

[Chris]

One of the reasons he rules out Eddowes as the owner is that when they did the absorption tests, they found that the blue dye on the fabric was especially soluble in water, and came off samples pretty dramatically. Since Eddowes, tramping around outside much of the time and carrying all her belongings with her, would've been exposed to rain, it's expected that more of the blue dye would have come off had it been hers for any length of time.

I think the fact that the blue dye was so soluble is a pretty strong indication that this isn't a shawl for outdoor use, but a decorative household item.

It also means that it's not at all strange that it hasn't been washed. If it were washed in water the dye would come out of it.

[GUT]

I have to say that the flowers on the "shawl" don't look anything like Michaelmas daisies to me. I've copied below an enlarged version of Stewart Evans's photo, a William Morris Michaelmas daisy pattern and some photos of real Michaelmas daisies from the Internet.

[ATTACH]16244[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]16245[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]16243[/ATTACH]

I suspect the description of the flowers on the "shawl" as Michaelmas daisies stems from a desire to identify it with the "chintz dress" of the press reports. I should add that this description didn't originate with Russell Edwards, but predated his purchase of the "shawl".

Thanks Chris

Maybe Pansies or even clover, but daisies?

This seems to be the biggest problem with Mr Edwards' book, if he had stuck to the "facts" about the DNA it would have been one thing, but all the BS just makes the rest look silly.

Daisies
Shawls
Police taking evidence
The shawl's a skirt or was that the skirt's a shawl?
It was Kosminski's shawl
etc etc etc

[mickreed]

I have to say that the flowers on the "shawl" don't look anything like Michaelmas daisies to me. I've copied below an enlarged version of Stewart Evans's photo, a William Morris Michaelmas daisy pattern and some photos of real Michaelmas daisies from the Internet.

[ATTACH]16244[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]16245[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]16243[/ATTACH]

I suspect the description of the flowers on the "shawl" as Michaelmas daisies stemmed from a desire to identify it with the "chintz dress" of the press reports. I should add that this description didn't originate with Russell Edwards, but predated his purchase of the "shawl".

You beauty, Chris. I really do think this Michaelmas thing has no legs at all.