Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Jeff Leahy]

You know even with out the shawl and DNA Kosminski is a pretty decent suspect. I thought most Ripperologists would be pleased that suspicion has re-centered on Kosminski, this is not like Maybrick or the Royal Conspiracy theories where we ended up with suspects out of the blue like Maybrick, Prince Albert Victor and Walter Sickert.

You would think tat wouldn't you…but this seems to be hotter than usual..

The private emails are flying quicker than the thread and I may have to with draw from this conversation…I'm certain that will please a number of posters

Good Night all

Yours Jeff

[Semper_Eadem]

Hey Jeff,

I guess we as a species are just hotwired to nitpick any and everything. G'Night, BTW I loved watching your JTR The Definitive Story you produced, I finally got to see it.

Geo~

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Well, there is the 1892 magazine article about the charwoman shopping around the shawl of one of the victims trying to get a collector of Ripper memorabilia to buy it. It's pretty ephemeral and the victim isn't named nor is there is there anything to connect it to the Simpson family, but it does suggest at least there was a purported victim's shawl that was kept as a souvenir and making the rounds. And more generally the article itself shows that there was an active collector's market for Ripperiana in the years after the murder. I still think there must be other items tucked away in private collections that could have DNA on them.

Here is the thread where it's discussed:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=5947

but it doesn't mean that shawl was at a crime scene.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Bridewell,

A lot of people genuinely trust in the story of the Swanson marginalia and end-paper notation.

I believe that Swanson wrote most of it.

But I do not believe, any more than I believe the Maybrick Diary, the watch with the victims' initials scratched in the back or the Amos Simpson shawl, that Donald Sutherland Swanson wrote the magic words, "Kosminski was the suspect."

Regards,

Simon

[Bridewell]

The multiple people you refer to are the ones who do not understand the difference between the two DNA profiles and how to asses and evaluate them

Trevor,

The guy making these assertions is Dr Jari Louhelainen. He is a Senior Lecturer in Molecular Biology at LJMU, as well as Associate Professor of Biochemistry at University of Helsinki, one of the world’s top universities. He has two major lines of research – mammalian/medical genetics and forensics.
His qualifications, as listed on the Liverpool John Moores University website:

Ph.D. (Molecular Epidemiology), Karolinska Institute, Sweden, 2000
M.Sc.(Biochemistry), University of Helsinki, Finland, 1988

Research interests:

Gene expression systems, cDNA microarrays bioinformatics, genotyping and Single-Nucleotide Polymorphisms analysis, mutation analysis and DNA sequencing, human cell culture techniques, wildlife forensics and scientific photography.

He obviously does "understand the difference between the two DNA profiles and how to asses and evaluate them".

Now, unless you have academic qualifications which come close to matching his, I for one am going to conclude that he knows a great deal more about DNA sequencing than you do. You are not an expert; he is. So perhaps you could finally answer the question that so many people have asked you,

"Where are you getting your 400,000 figure from?"

[RockySullivan]

Interesting how the ripper collector is described as rosy. Blotchy face?

[Bridewell]

Hi Bridewell,

A lot of people genuinely trust in the story of the Swanson marginalia and end-paper notation.

I believe that Swanson wrote most of it.

But I do not believe, any more than I believe the Maybrick Diary, the watch with the victims' initials scratched in the back or the Amos Simpson shawl, that Donald Sutherland Swanson wrote the magic words, "Kosminski was the suspect."

Regards,

Simon

Thanks for replying, Simon. The biggest problem I have with the annotations is why the Seaside Home was used for an identification procedure. I think that if we ever got a completely satisfactory explanation for that it would explain a great deal.

I think I understand your thinking behind the Kosminski reference though.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hey Jeff,

I guess we as a species are just hotwired to nitpick any and everything. G'Night, BTW I loved watching your JTR The Definitive Story you produced, I finally got to see it.

Geo~

Thanks Semper

Actually its my partner getting rather fed up with me spending to much tie on the boards..

So taking a step back.. But thanks for your comments

Yours Jeff

[RockySullivan]

What do y'all think the ripper did with the rings he took as trophies? Hawked them? Kept them? Gave him to his wife? Gave them to a Amos Simpson?

[GUT]

Hello Pinkmoon,

Cart afore horse?

Then we have to put Amos Simpson at the murder scene because atm it doesnt fit the known facts- then how and when he got the material according to the story he told vis a vis the added later details and suppositions that dont fit the known facts either, Then try and work out the age of the material to comply with previous estimates and newer comments from the author- who has to make a definitive statement on whether it is a shawl or a skirt- what the actual colour is because the green AND the chintz fabrick have miraculously changed after being locked up for 100 years yet certain stains are still present and how if a skirt did Simpson remove said skirt from the body "on the way to the mortuary"(quote Edwards on radio shown on his website)THEN work out how Sotherby'S experts missed the fact the michelmas daisy pattern was painted on and not a print when they had a look at it- THEN work out if it was Kosminski's or Eddowes as it was and has always been described as Eddowes' shawl without a MENTION of Aaron Kosminski owning it at any time- THEN ask how the shawl got to the square. I may have left something out somewhere like Collard and all not mentioning the appearance of Simpson in the City at all. Sure there is more...oh well

*I would love to hear Andy Parlour's reaction to it being owned by Kosminski all of a sudden. Not quite how he saw it if I remember correctly?

More hole-ridden swiss cheese anyone? Nay- (neigh)- let us give it to the horse whilst it watches the wheels fall off the cart it is pushing. lol Norwegian Jarlsberg anyone?

best wishes

Phil

G'day Phil

But other than those trifling matters, there's not much left to do!

[GUT]

A quick question Phil can you imagine this shawl or whatever it is been introduced as evidence into a modern day murder trial.

G'day Pinkmoon

I can.

It's always good to make the Jury laugh.

[Colin Roberts]

The multiple people you refer to are the ones who do not understand the difference between the two DNA profiles and how to asses and evaluate them

... perhaps you could finally answer the question that so many people have asked you,

"Where are you getting your 400,000 figure from?"

It is an established fact that 400,000 residents of 55 Flower & Dean Street shared Eddowes's mtDNA profile.

If this is beyond anyone's comprehension then they are obviously unable to "asses and evaluate" [sic] this type of evidence.

"asses"

No shortage of those around here!

[Chris]

So perhaps you could finally answer the question that so many people have asked you,

"Where are you getting your 400,000 figure from?"

It looks very much like this:


[Marriott, Jack the Ripper: The 21st Century Investigation (2007)]

Though if Trevor Marriott had read the book, or listened to what people have been trying to explain to him here, he would have known that the match to the DNA of Eddowes's relation was not based on a mitochondrial DNA haplotype, so that - even if all haplotypes had the same frequency, which they don't - the statistics that applied to Patricia Cornwell's analysis would not be relevant to Dr Louhelainen's.

[Bridewell]

Thanks, Chris.

[lynn cates]

yup

Hello Boris.

"As for Kosminski . . . it seems to me he's still as viable as any other named suspect."

Funny, but I don't disagree with this.

Cheers.
LC