Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Chris]

I never claimed this applied to this case--I only stated that we need to be aware that post Industrial Revolution genetic shifts are occurring more rapidly that can be accounted for by spontaneous, random mutations alone. I also clearly stated that with only 5 generations there should not be any problem with these matches.

You agree with what I said in the first place, in other words?

[lynn cates]

not sitting well

Hello Christopher. Thanks.

"I do not have insights into schizophrenia, I have not diagnosed the Ripper as a schizophrenic or with any other psychological condition. I do not diagnose anyone's mental condition, I am not a psychiatrist, nor do I have any desire to play one on the internet."

Fair enough. We know that, when he was pinched, he was mentally deranged. He seems never to have recovered from this situation. This is NOT consistent with the modern thinking on sexual serial killing. This theory involves sociopathy.

But his malady seems more or less consistent with some form of schizophrenia. In fact, this diagnosis MIGHT allow for his being ill in 1888, lucid subsequent to that, and ill again in 1991.

But these do not sit well together.

Cheers.
LC

[MrBarnett]

I agree with you Mr B. It seems certain detractors are only interested in the story put out by Mr Edwards, it's easy to debunk you see. As you suggest, It's possible that the "shawl" came into the possession of the family via a route other than the one suggested by the family, and Mr Edwards.

Regards

Observer

Hi Observer,

The family story is a little shaky, and the spin Edwards puts on the Michaelmas daisy pattern is risible ( there is an image somewhere of a framed piece of the shawl and the flowers do not look anything like Michaelmas daisies). But we are left with an artefact that can be subjected to scientific evaluation, and once we get our heads around the results of that evaluation, and especially if the results are independently verified (or not), we will know what we are dealing with.

MrB

[Henry Flower]

I think it's very likely that the shawl came from a notorious crime scene. Can anyone think of another reason why the family of a policeman would treasure a piece of old material stained with blood and semen?

MrB I'm included to agree with that much at least.

But can anyone tell me - because I'm not as familiar with the history of the holy shroud - er, sorry - the shawl as some of the real researchers here - is there any record of the Simpson family ever making any attempt to cash-in or gain fifteen minutes of fame from possession of the thing prior to 2007, or did they merely hide it away for decades? When it emerged in 2007 was that done in high style or with as little sensation as possible?

In his Bank Holiday book Tom Wescott provides a brief précis of its known history, and offers a hypothetical explanation for its possible provenance and the location via which it came into Simpson's hands. He's happy to acknowledge that this is pure conjecture and that the shawl may have an origin in some other, now forgotten crime scene.

In fact, I've never read a single Ripper-based work that didn't indulge in guesswork and hypotheticals to fill in the inevitable gaps in the historical record. I think too many people are unwilling to acknowledge that fact when refusing the shawl story the same latitude.

Not that I believe the shawl story. I can't get around the fact of its existence not being noted by anyone at the time. That mortuary inventory is so exhaustive and so detailed.

Talking of the mortuary inventory: can someone tell me precisely where Golden lane mortuary was? Was it located on Golden Lane near the current Barbican complex?

[lynn cates]

narrow minded

Hello Sox. Good to see you posting again.

"All that this really proves, is that Mr Edwards is a wily entreprenuer, because look here, almost two hundred pages, including posts from some people more or less defending these claims as already established facts. If he has people here believing these claims, then I imagine his book and his 'store' are going to be doing a roaring trade over the coming months."

Bingo!

"Deja vu anyone? I am amazed that such reputable researchers as are on these boards are even giving a second thought to this nonsense."

Ah, but how can we be so narrow minded? Buy the book and give it a go. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Henry Flower]

I am amazed that such reputable researchers as are on these boards are even giving a second thought to this nonsense

Perhaps reputable researchers become reputable researchers by being willing to give a second thought to things that others ignore or dismiss?

[lynn cates]

D N A

Hello GUT.

"Well why didn't he spend a little bit on brushing up on the actual crimes.

You know minor things like what was at the scene, where Simpson's duties took hm, little issues like that."

Ah! But he doubled back. Besides, why study a case when you have 100% DNA evidence? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

merchandising

Hello Amanda. Welcome to the boards (if I have not previously). Yes, this is QUITE sad.

I agree that there was too much haste with this book. I am reminded of Sir John Talbot's (Claude Rains) line from "The Wolfman": "You policemen are always in such a hurry--as if dead men hadn't all eternity."

REAL research is a slow procedure. Merchandising, perhaps not.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

thought experiment

Hello Jeff.

"Schwartz described Strides murder to Swanson as follows: 'He pulled her onto the street and throw her to the ground"

Could this be a description of someone being garrotted from behind?"

No. She died in the yard.

"Could the Shawl actually be the murder weapon?"

Not physically possible.

"Would a strip of material from his homeland have a specific connect in Aaron's mind to his Mother?"

Here's a thought experiment for you. If Aaron had carried such a cloth about--and to each murder--surely at least one other person would have noticed and remarked the fact?

Cheers.
LC

[christoper]

Hello Christopher. Thanks.

"I do not have insights into schizophrenia, I have not diagnosed the Ripper as a schizophrenic or with any other psychological condition. I do not diagnose anyone's mental condition, I am not a psychiatrist, nor do I have any desire to play one on the internet."

Fair enough. We know that, when he was pinched, he was mentally deranged. He seems never to have recovered from this situation. This is NOT consistent with the modern thinking on sexual serial killing. This theory involves sociopathy.

But his malady seems more or less consistent with some form of schizophrenia. In fact, this diagnosis MIGHT allow for his being ill in 1888, lucid subsequent to that, and ill again in 1991.

But these do not sit well together.

Cheers.
LC

not my area of study, I can't be much help in diagnosing him. Sorry.

[lynn cates]

loggerheads

Hello Henry.

"It's being hypothesized that it takes place subsequently, at another location."

Of course, that is at loggerheads with the Simpson story. The shawl would NOT be found near the victim.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Here's a thought experiment for you. If Aaron had carried such a cloth about--and to each murder--surely at least one other person would have noticed and remarked the fact?

Maybe they did ?

PC Smith - "He had a parcel wrapped in a newspaper in his hand. The parcel was about 18in. long and 6in. to 8in. broad."

George Hutchinson - "He also had a kind of a small parcel in his left hand with a kind of strap round it"

[christoper]

You agree with what I said in the first place, in other words?

lol--I have said it all along.

You open up the topic when you made the claim that it is impossible for DNA to change over the course of a few generations. That was an error which needed to be amended. People should know it is possible and is happening at a rapidly increasing rate.

However this is the third time on this thread that I have said that it seems that type of scenario does not seem to be a factor in this case.

[lynn cates]

know

Hello Trevor.

"What everyone is missing is that Aaron Kosminski in any event may not be the Kosminski mentioned in the contentious MM and the SM. His antecedents simply do not fit.

But of course those proponents of Kosminski will say the police in question got their facts mixed up. Talk about changing the goalposts.

Now we have got back to JTR killing all the victims which is clear that he didn't, and Aaron Kosminski being Jack the Ripper."

But would a hawker of a cheap crime novel know that? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[christoper]

Hello Christopher. Thanks.

"I do not have insights into schizophrenia, I have not diagnosed the Ripper as a schizophrenic or with any other psychological condition. I do not diagnose anyone's mental condition, I am not a psychiatrist, nor do I have any desire to play one on the internet."

Fair enough. We know that, when he was pinched, he was mentally deranged. He seems never to have recovered from this situation. This is NOT consistent with the modern thinking on sexual serial killing. This theory involves sociopathy.

But his malady seems more or less consistent with some form of schizophrenia. In fact, this diagnosis MIGHT allow for his being ill in 1888, lucid subsequent to that, and ill again in 1991.

But these do not sit well together.

Cheers.
LC

I have 2 questions for you:

1--are you claiming all "sexual" serial killers are sociopaths?

and

2--please explain the difference between sociopathy and psychopathy.

Thanks.