Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[SJ76]

I was under the impression that his siblings were Isaac, Samuel, Matilda, and Betsy

based on birth certificates and marriage records which list the parents as
Golda Lubnowska and Abram Josef Kozminski

[Patrick S]

No. Epethelial cells.

There is also some rubbish about the Ripper having been known to have masterbated in the presence of the bodies after the murders. Louhelainen - who seems to be no JtR scholar - states that Edward's eyes lit up and he commented "THAT'S WHAT HE WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE DONE!" That was news to me.

I'm no proponent of the book and theory - but I don't think one needs to prove the shawl was or was not at the crime scene or that Simpson stole it or anything else....IF the DNA evidence shows that DNA (semen or otherwise) from Aaron Kosminski and DNA (blood or otherwise) from Katherine Eddowes) is on that fabric (victim and suspect), then the documentented physical history of the shawl become fairly close to irrelevant. Now, you may have to exhume a couple of bodies in order to be conclusive........

Further, I don't think that the Ripper masterbated at crime scenes and I don't think that he got semen on the shawl in Mitre Square. IF this whole thing is rooted in fact, it's more likely that Kosminski brought the shawl with him, the semen already present on it due to his documented habit of 'self-abuse'. He may have used it to entice Eddowes, then he may have lost it in the dark. He may have intended to haul organs away in it but - having lost it - decided to use some other source of avaiable fabric (Eddowes apron) to do so. Who knows? I detest playing this "what may or may not have happened" game. Reality, chains of event, the flow of human interaction and movement, all these things are almost totally unpredictable. Therefore, it's folly to offer conjecture. We are a long way from this shawl being proved genuine scientifically. However, if it IS....then the chances are that is WAS in Mitre Square and the Ripper did get his Jackie Sauce on it and Eddowes did bleed on it and regardless of how unlikely that scenario was.....it wasn't impossible....and the science tells us that is what likely happened.

[Jeff Leahy]

There is only one book on Kosminski that people need to buy.

[ATTACH]16222[/ATTACH]

Second that..

[Theagenes]

Second that..

Just finishing it up now, and I've thoroughly enjoyed it. Solidly-researched and well-written.

[SJ76]

I agree the shawl could have been a gift to entice or brought to kneel down upon, and then left as it had blood on it. Or in a morbid sense of irony it had been offered as payment for services, and he left it -paying the bill. It makes me think of two things..one that there were quite a few tailors in the extended kosminski family and the reoccurunt red scarf. seen on a suspect, mary Kelly, and eddowes I believe. Wandered if these were gifts, the method of strangulation, or some ritual object signifigant to jtr

[SJ76]

The question as to whether jtr masturbated at the crime scene depends upon what was the purpose for taking organs with him. If you believe that these were sexually stimulating to jtr then I think he could have masturbated at crime scenes if given time and then brought trophies home to continue this fantasy

[richardnunweek]

Hi..
I believe that its possible that the killer gave his victims some gift prior to their fateful meeting....In MJKs case it was a handkerchief , in Nichols it was a bonnet...with Eddowes it could have been that shawl...[ which the killer had previously masturbated in..]..all possible..I would love a solution to this case,,,it has gone on too long..
Regards Richard.

[booth]

Just finishing it up now, and I've thoroughly enjoyed it. Solidly-researched and well-written.

Just ordered it, and looking forward to reading it.

[moonbegger]

Its all very plausible , and I do like the idea that he somehow misplaced his jam rag and had to make do with Eddows apron , but according to Jari

" He also found evidence of split body parts during the frenzied attack. One of Eddowes’ kidneys was removed by her murderer, and later in his research Jari managed to identify the presence of what he believed to be a kidney cell."

So did the killer place her organs on the shawl first ? and if so , why cut the apron and switch horses mid stream ?

moonbegger

[robhouse]

The question as to whether jtr masturbated at the crime scene depends upon what was the purpose for taking organs with him. If you believe that these were sexually stimulating to jtr then I think he could have masturbated at crime scenes if given time and then brought trophies home to continue this fantasy

Some serial killers do masturbate after committing murder, so this is entirely possible. Many take "trophies" from their victims, to remind them of the crime as a sexual stimulant later. For the Ripper to have masturbated at the crime scene would have been too risky.

I would propose the following as a possibility in this case:

Kozminski kills Eddowes and takes the shawl with him when he leaves the square.

At some other location, away from the crime scene, perhaps in MET territory, he masturbates, with the shawl as a sort of souvenir/ stimulant. He then wipes up and discards the shawl.

It is later picked up and kept as a souvenir by a MET PC.

Somehow Simpson ends up owning it, and the story evolves over time.

RH

[GUT]

But, if this shawl is independently tested and shown to contain:

1. DNA from Katherine Eddowes (and not DNA from Eddowes' descendents who may have handled the shawl)
2. DNA from blood belonging to Katherine Eddowes
3. DNA from Aaron Kosminski (and not DNA from the as of now unnamed Kosminski relative who may have handled the shawl)
4. DNA from semen belonging to Aaron Kosminski

This would put a contemporary Ripper suspect with a Ripper victim (with bodily fluids flying about). There's no reason to believe that Kosminski and Eddowes knew one another. Their only link - so far as we know - is this: Suspect. Victim.

G'day Patrick

How about prostitute and client, [gee that wouldn't lead to the same result would it.]

[JeffHamm]

Are you saying that you have read the book and all they matched was one lousy Haplogroup?

Although that one particular group was mentioned on-line, it was obvious based on what the scientist said, that he is claiming that more than just one individual Haplogroup from the DNA strand was matched. So was he deliberately misleading us? I have not read the book.

Every piece matched would narrow it down to fewer and fewer people.

this wiki page goes into great detail about the Thomas Jefferson DNA--in his case paternal DNA (not maternal) was used---but the matching process is very similar. You can see in great detail how certain fragments found were very common (some of which pointed to Africa where many shared that fragment) but when the entire result was put together--there were only a few who matched the totality. That is how it works. Just because that one piece is common it does not mean that the entire strand is that common.

The details in this article are a good explanation of how it works:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffers...gs_controversy

No, I've not read the book, not sure where you got that from? What I was saying was here's a resource on the T1a1 haplogroup, which is the only mtDNA haplogroup I've seen mentioned and discussed so far. If you are aware of other mtDNA related information, and know of resources that might be suitable for people to consider, please do provide. As I said by pointing out that T1 estimates would overestimate the numbers of T1a1 (for the obvious reason that some with T1 would not be T1a1), and you seem to agree since you point out that more information narrows the numbers more, then the more information we can put together, the more narrow things become. The number of possible matches has been a topic of discussion as various numbers have been tossed around. This is how one explains where those numbers come from.

- Jeff

[GUT]

Police Code 1889 re murder.

Monty

G'day Monty

That was the code but Simpson didn't worry about things like codes, that's how he got promoted to Act' Sgt. He just wandered whereever he wanted and nicked whatever evidence he thought the missus could use .

Well that's what some want us to accept anyway.

[GUT]

Hi Monty,
I see your point but I was referring to the comments regarding this new 'evidence' in particular, which many people on here seem to be dismissing as unlikely to be true. We have to wait and see what other scientists have to say on the matter before disregarding the claims.

You can't deny that knowing the true identity of the Ripper would take away some of the fun. That's the whole point of this casebook, so that everyone can air their individual views. No suspects, no fun.

Amanda

And is Mr E gonna let other scientists look at it. According to BBC Dr is already questioning it.

[robhouse]

I was under the impression that his siblings were Isaac, Samuel, Matilda, and Betsy

based on birth certificates and marriage records which list the parents as
Golda Lubnowska and Abram Josef Kozminski

What is your source for that, out of curiosity.