The Bell Club incident, and the 1887 attack on Aaron Abrahams

[Herlock Sholmes]

Where is the actual evidence that a word chiczer has ever been used to mean shikse ?

Funnily enough, you can find that evidence in this very thread. Roger posted the image of it being used in #27. Hope that helps.

I tell you what, I’ll even save you the trouble of scrolling through 2 pages.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/suspects/kosminski-aaron/801488-the-bell-club-incident-and-the-1887-attack-on-aaron-abrahams?p=803418#post803418

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I don't know whether you're trying to be funny, Sherlock, but I reproduced that same image in my # 42.

I asked you: where is the actual evidence that a word chiczer has ever been used to mean shikse ?

I am still waiting for the evidence.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Where is the actual evidence that a word chiczer has ever been used to mean shikse ?

You will find the "actual evidence" in posts #27 and #42 of this thread.

I'm being deadly serious.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

You will find the "actual evidence" in posts #27 and #42 of this thread.

I'm being deadly serious.

I mean actual evidence that your hypothetical word chiczer has ever been used instead of shikse or shikses.

The facsimile of the word in the note is not evidence of chiczer ever having been used in that way.

That is merely your opinion.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I mean actual evidence that your hypothetical word chiczer has ever been used instead of shikse or shikses.

The facsimile of the word in the note is not evidence of chiczer ever having been used in that way.

That is merely your opinion.

The evidence is where I said it was.

You're asking the wrong question in any case.

The correct question is: What Yiddish word could have been used to describe non-Jewish charwomen and washerwoman who worked for Jews on the Sabbath?

Once you've worked out the answer to that (very simple) question, this entire unfathomable mystery that you are finding so difficult to solve will suddenly become clear to you.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The evidence is where I said it was.

You're asking the wrong question in any case.

The correct question is: What Yiddish word could have been used to describe non-Jewish charwomen and washerwoman who worked for Jews on the Sabbath?

Once you've worked out the answer to that (very simple) question, this entire unfathomable mystery that you are finding so difficult to solve will suddenly become clear to you.

Apart from the fact that you cannot produce any evidence that the word shikse had ever been rendered as chiczer, there is the fact that chiczer could not have been used to describe non-Jewish charwomen because the plural of shikse is shikses and it is evident that the word in the facsimile does not end in an s.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Apart from the fact that you cannot produce any evidence that the word shikse had ever been rendered as chiczer, there is the fact that chiczer could not have been used to describe non-Jewish charwomen because the plural of shikse is shikses and it is evident that the word in the facsimile does not end in an s.

Tell you what, why don't you go off and work out what Yiddish word it could be, and perhaps report back to us in a few years time as to how you are getting on.

Best of luck!

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Tell you what, why don't you go off and work out what Yiddish word it could be, and perhaps report back to us in a few years time as to how you are getting on.

Best of luck!

There is no Yiddish word 'chiczer'.

There is not even a character representing 'ch' (as in English 'church') in the Yiddish language.

As I said, you are completely out of your depth.

You wrote mistakenly that the word supplied in the image came directly from the writer, but the writer couldn't even decipher it.

His best attempt was: 'They are called “chi-z-er” (?)'

Whoever originally wrote the word was not writing an English transcription but a German transcription, which was common at that time.

The correct transcription of the plural of 'shikse' into German would have been 'Schikses' or 'Schickses', which is nothing like your 'chiczer'.

[Herlock Sholmes]

There is no Yiddish word 'chiczer'.

There is not even a character representing 'ch' (as in English 'church') in the Yiddish language.

As I said, you are completely out of your depth.

You wrote mistakenly that the word supplied in the image came directly from the writer, but the writer couldn't even decipher it.

His best attempt was: 'They are called “chi-z-er” (?)'

Whoever originally wrote the word was not writing an English transcription but a German transcription, which was common at that time.

The correct transcription of the plural of 'shikse' into German would have been 'Schikses' or 'Schickses', which is nothing like your 'chiczer'.

Truly the daftest thing you've written so far in this thread.

The person writing the note would have been English.

You must understand that he was rendering a phonetic transcription of a strange foreign word he'd obviously never heard before.

If you don't understand that, you're not competent to be discussing this subject. If you do understand it, you're arguing in pure bad faith.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Truly the daftest thing you've written so far in this thread.

The person writing the note would have been English.

You must understand that he was rendering a phonetic transcription of a strange foreign word he'd obviously never heard before.

If you don't understand that, you're not competent to be discussing this subject. If you do understand it, you're arguing in pure bad faith.

If the person who wrote the note was English and was responsible for the spelling of the word, why could he not even make out the letters of the word?

[Herlock Sholmes]

If the person who wrote the note was English and was responsible for the spelling of the word, why could he not even make out the letters of the word?

If that question had made any sense I would have answered it but, as it doesn't, I won't.

[rjpalmer]

The 1891 census shows 3 families at 37 Charlotte Street, Whitechapel including Charles Fern, a china dealer whose father's first name happens to have been Aaron, although Aaron isn't listed at the property.

Interestingly, Fern was living at 37 Charlotte Street by at least 1886, so he would have been there at the time of the Bell Club incident. Perhaps "Abrahams" was a lodger or employee.

There was a very disturbing incident involving Fern stabbing a tame bear and assaulting its 'Asiatic' bear keeper in 1886. Evening News, 19 October.

Sounds like a wonderful guy.

[Barnaby]

To return to the original post (I just now read this thread), The Bell Club incident is interesting to me not because of any connection to Kosminski but because it challenges a belief I held. I believed that this type of violent crime was exceedingly rare among the Jewish community, and I based this on an article by David Englander entitled "Policing the Ghetto: Jewish East London, 1880-1920." This is a good read and hyperlinked below. In any event, it appears that violent crime in this community did occur, and could occur on a rather large scale, as seen in this riot.

https://journals.openedition.org/chs/1141