Continuation of “Possibility for the Seaside Home”

[barnflatwyngarde]

I hope you would agree with me that it would have been better if, instead of constantly challenging my assertions, people would actually look up and read the relevant literature.

With the greatest respect PI, many of the people you are debating with have an unparalleled knowledge of this fascinating case. I know a bit about the case, but I am happy to admit that I feel like a novice sometimes.
Everyone I have debated/disagreed with has been nothing but generous with their knowledge and mostly very humble with it.

[Elamarna]

I'm 'on about' the identification evidence in the murder of Catherine Eddowes.

The suspect was described as a blond-haired sailor.

Kosminski, so we are told, was so obviously of Jewish appearance that Anderson and Swanson's star witness - who was such a star that Abberline didn't know he existed - refused to testify against him on realising he was Jewish.

And he looked so Jewish that he had blond hair and dressed like a sailor after leaving synagogue on Saturday night.

Didn't you ever learn how to make a polite enquiry rather than ask someone what he's 'on about'?

No he was not described as a blond haired sailor. That is your interpretation.

The words used by Lawende were

"- age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair, fair moustache, medium build, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor."

That is not saying he is blond haired sailor, is it?

So obviously Jewish?
That appears to be worse than speculation.

The witness refused to testify once he realised the suspect was also Jewish.
That suggests that he became aware after the event ( what he witnessed), not that he knew at the time that he witnessed it .

Once again this is assumption.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Evening

If you can't make intelligent conversation, why send me messages?

The witness mentioned that the suspect had the appearance of a sailor.

It seems that my very mention of the word sailor has become cause for hilarity or scepticism or ridicule.

I thought that this forum was about looking at the evidence relating to this case.

It's the most important piece of eyewitness evidence in the whole case, yet the identification at a seaside home that most researchers consider took place twenty months later - if it ever took place at all - seems to be arousing more interest here.

What about the only actual eyewitness evidence relating to this murder?

It wasn't I who first suggested that the suspect was a sailor.

It was the witness.

[Elamarna]

You keep saying things about my comments that are obviously untrue.

I would ask why you keep doing it, especially as you said you're going to turn over a new leaf.

You are assuming the Identification takes place at Hove, it need not

I didn't.



You are again assuming that Kelly was the last murder


There is a consensus that Kelly's was the last murder.

Most researchers and commentators make the same assumption - as you call it - that I make.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you send them messages that they're making an 'assumption' that Kelly's was the last murder.

Now I'm bearing in mind the instruction from the administrators that we should 'cool' this, but the thing is you're starting it again now.

You're saying I'm making assumptions, which I'm not.

The question is: why are you sending me messages saying that I'm making assumptions but apparently you're not sending such messages to everyone else?

But you are,

1. you pointed out to Abby that Hove did not open until 1890, then asked if Lawende could be used at that point , so you clearly are saying the seaside home was in Hove.

2. I think you will find many researchers and commentators do not accept Kelly is the last murder.

Sorry questioning you politely, is cooling it.
Or do you thing that Admin meant people should not disagree with you full stop.

So many of the comments you make are assumptions, which you keep presenting as the only credible option. Clearly you think your deductions are not speculation.

[Elamarna]

You keep saying things about my comments that are obviously untrue.

I would ask why you keep doing it, especially as you said you're going to turn over a new leaf.

You are assuming the Identification takes place at Hove, it need not

I didn't.



You are again assuming that Kelly was the last murder


There is a consensus that Kelly's was the last murder.

Most researchers and commentators make the same assumption - as you call it - that I make.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you send them messages that they're making an 'assumption' that Kelly's was the last murder.

Now I'm bearing in mind the instruction from the administrators that we should 'cool' this, but the thing is you're starting it again now.

You're saying I'm making assumptions, which I'm not.

The question is: why are you sending me messages saying that I'm making assumptions but apparently you're not sending such messages to everyone else?

Messages are normally considered on the forum's to mean private messages, not posts on a thread.

I have sent you NO messages

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

But you are,

1. you pointed out to Abby that Hove did not open until 1890, then asked if Lawende could be used at that point , so you clearly are saying the seaside home was in to be.

2. I think you will find many researchers and commentators do not accept Kelly is the last murder.

Sorry questioning you politely, is cooling it.
Or do you thing that Admin meant people should not disagree with you full stop.

So many of the comments you make are assumptions, which you keep presenting as the only credible option. Clearly you think your deductions are not speculation.

I ask you again: why are you sending me messages saying that I'm making assumptions but apparently you're not sending such messages to everyone else?

You say I'm making an assumption that Kelly's murder was the last in the series.

Do you send a message like that to everyone else who shares my view?

[Aethelwulf]

If you can't make intelligent conversation, why send me messages?

The witness mentioned that the suspect had the appearance of a sailor.

It seems that my very mention of the word sailor has become cause for hilarity or scepticism or ridicule.

I thought that this forum was about looking at the evidence relating to this case.

It's the most important piece of eyewitness evidence in the whole case, yet the identification at a seaside home that most researchers consider took place twenty months later - if it ever took place at all - seems to be arousing more interest here.

What about the only actual eyewitness evidence relating to this murder?

It wasn't I who first suggested that the suspect was a sailor.

It was the witness.

I did reply to your post, you know, the bits it bold. You're taking general casual clothes and 'appearance of a sailor' as 'blond Nordic sailor'. Nowhere is his actual hair colour mentioned and nowhere are the words blond or Nordic used. Lawende's man has a peaked cap and necktie on, which doesn't make him a sailor, or even a Nordic sailor, but could be taken as appearance of a sailor. Doesn't mean he was a sailor does it.

[Elamarna]

I ask you again: why are you sending me messages saying that I'm making assumptions but apparently you're not sending such messages to everyone else?

You say I'm making an assumption that Kelly's murder was the last in the series.

Do you send a message like that to everyone else who shares my view?

Again, you are not being sent messages, posts are being made in response to post you make. Those are NOT messages.
To say I am sending you messages suggests I am sending you private messages.

You are the one who is at this moment is stating that Kelly was the last murder, not as a possibility, or as a theory but as a fact.

Why would I being replying about that to Anyone else at this moment.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Again, you are not being sent messages, posts are being made in response to post you make. Those are NOT messages.
To say I am sending you messages suggests I am sending you private messages.

You are the one who is at this moment is stating that Kelly was the last murder, not as a possibility, or as a theory but as a fact.

Why would I being replying about that to Anyone else at this moment.

In that case, I think you ought to quote what I wrote.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I did reply to your post, you know, the bits it bold. You're taking general casual clothes and 'appearance of a sailor' as 'blond Nordic sailor'. Nowhere is his actual hair colour mentioned and nowhere are the words blond or Nordic used. Lawende's man has a peaked cap and necktie on, which doesn't make him a sailor, or even a Nordic sailor, but could be taken as appearance of a sailor. Doesn't mean he was a sailor does it.

it's a reasonable deduction from the evidence that he was a sailor.

And it's a reasonable deduction from the evidence that he had fair hair.

As I explained previously, I had in earlier posts quoted exact words from the description on record.

The reaction was just as critical as yours, even though I didn't use the word 'Nordic'.

Now when I use the word Nordic just once, in order to contrast his appearance with that of Kosminski, who we are being assured must have had a Jewish appearance, people are objecting to the use of the word 'Nordic'.

It was shorthand for someone with fair hair and fair complexion.

I'm amazed at the nit-picking that's going on.

If I said that he looked African I could understand the outrage.

I described him accurately.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Messages are normally considered on the forum's to mean private messages, not posts on a thread.

I have sent you NO messages

And now I suppose you're going to say you're not being pedantic.

[Elamarna]

it's a reasonable deduction from the evidence that he was a sailor.

And it's a reasonable deduction from the evidence that he had fair hair.

As I explained previously, I had in earlier posts quoted exact words from the description on record.

The reaction was just as critical as yours, even though I didn't use the word 'Nordic'.

Now when I use the word Nordic just once, in order to contrast his appearance with that of Kosminski, who we are being assured must have had a Jewish appearance, people are objecting to the use of the word 'Nordic'.

It was shorthand for someone with fair hair and fair complexion.

I'm amazed at the nit-picking that's going on.

If I said that he looked African I could understand the outrage.

I described him accurately.

No you didn't.

He is described as fair haired, that is not blond.
And he was said to look like a sailor.

That does not make him a blond sailor.

It says he may have been, that's the difference.

Given we have NO idea of Aaron Kosminski's physical appearance, not even his height. All we have is his weight at death, Such comparisons as you attempt to make are futile.

Its not nic picking, you are stated that he WAS a blond sailor.

You claimed that he evidently was, that the evidence said it

Problem is, it doesn't

Why do you not see that?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

No you didn't.

He is described as fair haired, that is not blond.
And he was said to look like a sailor.

That does not make him a blond sailor.

It says he may have been, that's the difference.

Given we have NO idea of Aaron Kosminski's physical appearance, not even his height. All we have is his weight at death, Such comparisons as you attempt to make are futile.

Its not nic picking, you are stated that he WAS a blond sailor.

You claimed that he evidently was, that the evidence said it

Problem is, it doesn't

Why do you not see that?

So this is the new leaf you've turned over?

Blond (male) or blonde (female), also referred to as fair hair

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond

The evidence is that the man seen in Church Passage was a blond sailor.



Given we have NO idea of Aaron Kosminski's physical appearance, not even his height. All we have is his weight at death, Such comparisons as you attempt to make are futile.

What you call a futile comparison is a necessary comparison.

There is a remarkable willingness on this forum to attach credence to the story of the unnamed witness who supposedly identified Kosminski as the murderer.

As you know, the story goes that when the witness met Kosminski at a seaside home, he immediately realised that Kosminski was Jewish.

As you know, I don't believe this story at all and it is true I've described it as hogwash, but I can honestly say that it has received a more sympathetic treatment on this forum than my idea that the murderer was a sailor.

The problem is this: if you are going to entertain the idea that the man with fair hair and with the appearance of a sailor was Kosminski, then how can he possibly have been instantly recognised by the mystery witness as someone of obviously Jewish appearance?

[The Baron]

"From extensive investigations of the color of the hair and eyes of the school-children in Germany, Virchow has shown that the Jews have not maintained their type in as pure a state as has been generally supposed. Of 75,377 Jewish children examined, only 46.83 per cent were brunettes having both dark hair and dark eyes; 11.17 per cent were blonds having light hair and light-colored eyes; and 42 per cent were of the mixed type having either dark hair with fair eyes, or vice versa. In Austria, according to Schimmer, 32 to 47 per cent (according to the province) of the Jewish children are pure brunettes, and 8 to 14 per cent are pure blonds. In Bulgaria, Wateff has found that only 49.57 per cent of Jewish children are brunettes, while 8.71 are blonds and 41.72 are of mixed type; and even in North Africa, where the dark type predominates among the Jews, 76.40 per cent are brunettes, 4.62 per cent are blonds, and 18.98 per cent are of mixed type."

https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5944-expression

TB

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

"From extensive investigations of the color of the hair and eyes of the school-children in Germany, Virchow has shown that the Jews have not maintained their type in as pure a state as has been generally supposed. Of 75,377 Jewish children examined, only 46.83 per cent were brunettes having both dark hair and dark eyes; 11.17 per cent were blonds having light hair and light-colored eyes; and 42 per cent were of the mixed type having either dark hair with fair eyes, or vice versa. In Austria, according to Schimmer, 32 to 47 per cent (according to the province) of the Jewish children are pure brunettes, and 8 to 14 per cent are pure blonds. In Bulgaria, Wateff has found that only 49.57 per cent of Jewish children are brunettes, while 8.71 are blonds and 41.72 are of mixed type; and even in North Africa, where the dark type predominates among the Jews, 76.40 per cent are brunettes, 4.62 per cent are blonds, and 18.98 per cent are of mixed type."

https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5944-expression

TB

Thanks for the statistics.

Perhaps you could also provide the statistics for the percentage of sailors that have been Jewish, and also the percentage of blond sailors that have been Jewish.